S35VN vs. CPM20CV

D

Detroit Steel

Joined
Jul 12, 2018
Messages
51
So, just go a new Hinderer with the new steel. What's the difference, or is it just one was cheaper than the rest when buying raw materials?
 
20cv is more expensive is what I always read, though I’ve never bout it as a raw material. S35 is also supposed to be easier on equipment. So I would guess you got upgraded.
 
In my eyes, 20CV is a superior steel. It's the same as M390/204p so there's a ton of information out there concerning it. Short story is that it'll hold it's edge much longer, while still being just as stain resistant(maybe more? Not sure on that), and without giving up too many pips in toughness. I would wager that S35VN is a wee bit tougher, but not by much. I've never destroyed either steel, but I've used them enough to know that if I were to choose between them, 20CV would win 99% of the time. I'm guessing 20CV is more expensive for a knifemaker to buy as well.
 
Detroit Steel said:
So, just go a new Hinderer with the new steel. What's the difference, or is it just one was cheaper than the rest when buying raw materials?
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20cv is considered a tier above s35vn.

Both are excellent steels though. Each is better in certain catagories.
 
As noted above, 20CV wins in edge retention and in my experience has a good deal more corrosion resistance, while S35VN has a bit more toughness. Hinderer maximizes both steels with a great heat treat. I would love to see them start using some Cruwear, as they market their knives as hard-use.
 
Simply put, both are very good steels but the M390 and its variants, Crucible's 20CV / Carpenter's 204P, are better as others have put it.

I would also like to add the following that while both steels are respectively very good or very, very good, I would only consider knives made from these steels if they are folders or small fixed blades. I would not consider paying a premium for a fixed blade, say BL of 4" or more, in either steel and I would stick with 3V, A2, AEB-L, Elmax and in some cases D2 (if I know and trust the knife maker, the supplier and the HT because D2 can range from really crappy to quite good, like sausages!) if wanted a premium steel fixed blade. Otherwise I'd rather just get a good 1095 carbon steel for fixed blades and NOT pay premium for 20CV / M390 even if stainless steel (both Elmax and AEB-L are also highly stainless).

Hope that this helps.
 
I would own a knife in either steel any day and not feel shortchanged, although I believe 20cv to be overall tougher, and would therefore command a price differential due to the higher tier steel. I mean, you can buy S35v knives for under a hundred dollars these days, which is both insane and fantastic. I am not aware of any 20cv knives where that is the case.
 
Casinostocks - Why would you not consider paying for 20CV/M390/204P for a blade 4" or more?
Elmax is within a tick of M390 in specs, and just as expensive.
 
IMO, our leading blade-testing hero is Jim Ankerson. His steel tests are based on edge retention cutting 5/8" manila rope. He categorized the steel's performance with Cat 1 being the best performing.
Looking at his list, it is seen that your 20CV is Cat 1, whereas the S35VN is far down in Cat 5. This is real world, refined testing. Perhaps your preferred medium is not manila rope, but I have found his tests to be most excellent, note-worthy (obviously) and the best guide we have readily available. He often does much additional cutting of cardboard and hard-woods, which seems to confirm his rope-cutting performance selections.
Summary: S35VN is a darned good steel...
20CV is top of the charts...and I find no great difference is sharpening difficulty.
Check out the link...it can change your preferences in a hurry...
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ed-on-edge-retention-cutting-5-8-rope.793481/
 
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tim37a said:
Casinostocks - Why would you not consider paying for 20CV/M390/204P for a blade 4" or more?
Elmax is within a tick of M390 in specs, and just as expensive.
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It may be a case of wanting proven overall toughness. 20cv is awesome at edge holding, but how would it due beating a large chopping blade into some hard oak out at a campsite? We know how well 3v or even well done 1095 would do in a 9 inch+ blade. Not speaking for him, but that is how I see it. I would want a large chopping blade out of a really tough steel I can just beat on something without worrying about chipping the edge.
 
Quiet: thank you for elaborating on my exact sentiments which I was about to do regarding my earlier above :)
 
Casinostocks said:
Quiet: thank you for elaborating on my exact sentiments which I was about to do about my earlier above :)
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Yessir! I figured that had to be more or less the case, because you listed several steels that I've seen in larger camp blades and they are proven "tough" steels. There's a lot of shock that comes with beating something with a large blade that a folding knife will simply never see. I have a list of steels in my head that when I am looking at large fixed blades, if the listed steel isn't on it, I close out of the tab.
 
Quiet said:
Yessir! I figured that had to be more or less the case, because you listed several steels that I've seen in larger camp blades and they are proven "tough" steels. There's a lot of shock that comes with beating something with a large blade that a folding knife will simply never see. I have a list of steels in my head that when I am looking at large fixed blades, if the listed steel isn't on it, I close out of the tab.
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Yes Sir, we seems to think alike on that issue but I normally "close the tab" if the fixed blade length criteria is 5 inches or more. I think I had said 4" upthread but I had really had meant to say 5 inches or more.

I'm not trying to start a debate or controversy because there are plenty of fine knifemakers who offer a bevy of fixed blades in S35VN and some in the 20CV variants, but personally speaking and for those likeminded such as Mr. Quite, we would just prefer something else.

When it comes to folders though, even if on the large side say like 4" blade length, no problem but I'd take M390/20CV over S35VN if my budget allows for it.
 
Casinostocks said:
Yes Sir, we seems to think alike on that issue but I normally "close the tab" if the fixed blade length criteria is 5 inches or more. I think I had said 4" upthread but I had really had meant to say 5 inches or more.

I'm not trying to start a debate or controversy because there are plenty of fine knifemakers who offer a bevy of fixed blades in S35VN and some in the 20CV variants, but personally speaking and for those likeminded such as Mr. Quite, we would just prefer something else.

When it comes to folders though, even if on the large side say like 4" blade length, no problem but I'd take M390/20CV over S35VN if my budget allows for it.
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I think that's definitely fair. I often look at fixed blades more in the 4-5 inch realm also if it's a belt-knife for some woods-walking. Large 9+ inch blades are much more of a car camping toy in my personal use experience. One of my favorites is a Swamprat Rodent 9. Now, I love doing batoning, and splitting with it, but I definitely would not carry it on a hike. Even something like my Becker BK9 would be left at home if I was primarily going on foot. A good 5 inch blade would easily be able to process smaller wood for a cooking fire, and I've done it many times. In any case, I'm glad that the market is absolutely swimming in choices in every steel, every blade length, and every price point these days. That way we ALL win.
 
I was not blown away by the edge holding of my M390 XM. It took an amazing edge but it seemed a bit lower RC than I expected. And the working finish stained pretty easily. My Inkosi kept an edge in a similar fashion at 59-60 S35VN .

If I were to pick up another I would get the 20CV or S35VN. The 20CV being my first choice by far. Just hoping it's treated better than the last blade I had.
 
Quiet said:
I think that's definitely fair. I often look at fixed blades more in the 4-5 inch realm also if it's a belt-knife for some woods-walking. Large 9+ inch blades are much more of a car camping toy in my personal use experience. One of my favorites is a Swamprat Rodent 9. Now, I love doing batoning, and splitting with it, but I definitely would not carry it on a hike. Even something like my Becker BK9 would be left at home if I was primarily going on foot. A good 5 inch blade would easily be able to process smaller wood for a cooking fire, and I've done it many times. In any case, I'm glad that the market is absolutely swimming in choices in every steel, every blade length, and every price point these days. That way we ALL win.
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Great point that you brought up the Rodent 9 because I'd be remiss if I don't mention one make which the name rodent reminded me of all of a sudden (Swamp Rat).

The Busse Kin steels such as 52100, SR101 and Infi: I did not mean to slight Busse fans in any way, shape or form but my own favoritism of the D3V steel made me totally ignore mentioning Busse's special sauce ;)

Apologies to the other folks for digressing, just had to mention the Busse steels as one of the most excellent choices for large fixed blades :)
 
McFeeli said:
In my eyes, 20CV is a superior steel. It's the same as M390/204p
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That's my opinion as well.
When it comes to S___V alloys the only one I really care for, the only one that really turns my crank is 3V. Don't see that much in folders. Part of the reason I EDCed my Cold Steel Mini Pendleton Hunter in 3V the last two weeks.
But I have folders that are top shelf for me, user wise, in the CPM20CV / M390 !
 
20CV is objectively better in most categories than S35VN.

I think the difference is experienced on paper more than it is in common use. I’ve used both quite a bit, on cardboard, zip ties, plastic straps, etc. I find each to be very low maintenance. Last week, I had a day in which I cut something like 40 zip ties in a couple hours. I also cut a little cardboard and 20 or so plastic straps. I haven’t touched up the edge on my Gemini at all since then, and it’ll still glide through paper. That’s with the edge set to 15 degrees per side, with a 17 degree per side micro bevel.

You really can’t go wrong either way.
 
Sonnydaze said:
IMO, our leading blade-testing hero is Jim Ankerson. His steel tests are based on edge retention cutting 5/8" manila rope. He categorized the steel's performance with Cat 1 being the best performing.
Looking at his list, it is seen that your 20CV is Cat 1, whereas the S35VN is far down in Cat 5. This is real world, refined testing.
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Please . . . and with all due respect :) :thumbsup: . . . we have to be careful with those tests.
Very careful.
If I have learned one thing from those lists (and I have learned many things from those tests) . . . that is that GEOMETRY (and heat treat) can make huge differences in what happens with a knife blade of a certain alloy while cutting rope.

For instance here is a swath of info FROM HIS SECOND LIST which is the one we should be paying attention to. The first list was more subjective opinion and based on work with earlier inconsistent sharpenings to a polished edge. The second list is much more objective and based on tests with easier to duplicate toothy 400 grit edges. In his words allowing the carbides to perform to their potential.
Note that the CPM-20CV is at the top of this SEGMENT from the full list . . . way above S35VN right . . . ? Then notice that the blade with 20CV is 62RC and .007" behind the edge.
way, way, way down the list near the bottom of this SEGENT from the full list is M390 at 60 RC and though it does not list it I can guarantee the thickness behind the edge on that Contego is on the order of .020" or more.

Some where between those two extremes with the same steel is S35VN and oh my gosh look . . . the geometry is in-between as well at .015" behind the edge. And the heat treat is arguably between as well at 61RC.

If that doesn't convince you look at the monstrous range of the tests for S30V ! ! !
All the way from a mere 300 cuts with S30V in a Military - 60 RC to . . .
620 cuts with S30V in a Michael Raymond Estrella Custom - 60.5 - 61 RC - .006" behind the edge.

CPM 20CV - 960 - Michael Raymond Starlit - 62 RC - .007" - .008" behind the edge
Z-A11 - 880 - Darrion Sanders Custom - 62.5 RC - .020" behind the edge/.070" spine thickness.
K390 - 820 - Mule - 62-64 RC
CPM S35VN - 760 - Darrin Sanders Custom - 62 - 62.5 RC - .006" behind the edge
CPM 4V - 740 - Big Chris Custom - 63 RC - .008" - .010" Behind the edge.
CPM M4 - 740 - Phil Wilson Custom - 65 RC - .015" Behind the edge.
S110V - 720 - Manix 2 - 62 RC - .030" behind the edge
Cru-Wear - 700 - Phil Wilson Custom Bow River - 63 RC - .005" behind the edge.
S30V - 620 - Michael Raymond Estrella Custom - 60.5 - 61 RC - .006" behind the edge
S110V - 600 - Mule - 60 RC - .015" -.018" behind the edge.
S90V - 600 - Benchmade 940-1 - 59-61 RC - .018" Behind the edge.
S35VN - 560 - Fiddleback Forge Kephart - 60-61 RC - .015" Behind the Edge.
CTS-XHP - 540 - Cold Steel Ultimate Hunter - 63.5 RC - .020" behind the edge
CPM M4 - 500 - Spyderco Gayle Bradley - 62.5 - .022" behind the edge
S90V - 460 - Military - 60 RC
S90V/CPM 154 - Para 2 - 460 - ? RC
White Steel Laminate - 460 - HSC Custom - 63-64 HRC - .020" behind the edge
RWL-34 - Mule Team 22 - 440 - 61-62 RC - .020" Behind the edge
CTS 204P - 420 - Para 2
ZDP -189 - 420 - Endura 4 - 65 RC
Niolox - 420 - LX Blades - 59 - 59.5 RC - .006" behind the edge
BD1N - 420 - Phil Wilson - 60 HRC - .020" behind the edge
M390 - 400 - Benchmade 810-1401 Contego 60-62 RC
M390 - 380 - Military - 61 RC
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I think his tests with ZDP-189 is just crazy talk o_O but we won't go there :)
 
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