Same steel, different company

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Mar 6, 2012
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Howdy folks!

Man, its been forever since I've posted here.

I got a question I'm dying to ask, so here goes.
Mind you, I have NO prejudices in these companies, nor do I work for either. The names are used purely for story-sake.

About 6 years ago, I bought my first CPM-S35VN knife, a Spyderco Native 5 G-10.
I had no issues with sharpening it at all. I could get it to shave on a Cheapo Lansky System.

Fast forward 2 years, and I got my second.
A Chris Reeve Sebenza 21.
I couldn't get this darn thing sharp to save my life. I read, I learned, I asked, I posted threads, you name it.
Did the sharpie trick, bought Diamond stones, stropped, etc.
I tried every method under the sun and I could still run my finger right down the edge.
Long story short, I traded it away for different stuff.

About a year after that, I bought my 3rd. A ZT-0450 in S35VN. No CPM on this one.
A bit hard to sharpen, but I can get it to just barely shave.

At this point after having 3 knives in the same steel, all 3 acted differently.

I decided to never buy S35VN again.

Until about a week ago.

I ended up at "That store for PROfessional BASS fisherman" :D and naturally I gravitated to the knife counter.

I ended up leaving with a Native 5 LW in CPM-S35VN.
Lemme tell you what....
This thing came outta the box ready to split atoms.
I used it to cut tires shortly after purchasing it. (Figured I'd push I hard to see if I had similar results with the steel).
It got a bit dull, so I set off to sharpen it that night, nervously ready to spend hours there.
20 or 30 passes each side with a Sharpmaker and Fine-white stones, and I could shave the eyebrows off a housefly mid-flight with It.

Thats 4 knives, from 3 different companies.
Do I just suck at sharpening, or is Spyderco the only company that knows how to make decent CPM-S35VN?

Do steels really act THAT different between companies? Its like each one was a COMPLETELY different steel altogether!
 
Howdy folks!

Man, its been forever since I've posted here.

I got a question I'm dying to ask, so here goes.
Mind you, I have NO prejudices in these companies, nor do I work for either. The names are used purely for story-sake.

About 6 years ago, I bought my first CPM-S35VN knife, a Spyderco Native 5 G-10.
I had no issues with sharpening it at all. I could get it to shave on a Cheapo Lansky System.

Fast forward 2 years, and I got my second.
A Chris Reeve Sebenza 21.
I couldn't get this darn thing sharp to save my life. I read, I learned, I asked, I posted threads, you name it.
Did the sharpie trick, bought Diamond stones, stropped, etc.
I tried every method under the sun and I could still run my finger right down the edge.
Long story short, I traded it away for different stuff.

About a year after that, I bought my 3rd. A ZT-0450 in S35VN. No CPM on this one.
A bit hard to sharpen, but I can get it to just barely shave.

At this point after having 3 knives in the same steel, all 3 acted differently.

I decided to never buy S35VN again.

Until about a week ago.

I ended up at "That store for PROfessional BASS fisherman" :D and naturally I gravitated to the knife counter.

I ended up leaving with a Native 5 LW in CPM-S35VN.
Lemme tell you what....
This thing came outta the box ready to split atoms.
I used it to cut tires shortly after purchasing it. (Figured I'd push I hard to see if I had similar results with the steel).
It got a bit dull, so I set off to sharpen it that night, nervously ready to spend hours there.
20 or 30 passes each side with a Sharpmaker and Fine-white stones, and I could shave the eyebrows off a housefly mid-flight with It.

Thats 4 knives, from 3 different companies.
Do I just suck at sharpening, or is Spyderco the only company that knows how to make decent CPM-S35VN?

Do steels really act THAT different between companies? Its like each one was a COMPLETELY different steel altogether!

Unless I’m mistaken, S35VN is CPM steel made by crucible industries. It may not say CPM on the blade but they are still produced using particle metallurgy. It isn’t surprising to hear that you had different experiences sharpening the same steel from different manufacturers. Each company heats treats their steel using different methods, so this will cause the blade steels to react differently to sharpening.
 
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I also had a small sebenza and also sold for the same reasons. I couldn’t do shit with it. Same lansky or sharp maker. That’s my only experience with s35.
 
This is why I don't pay attention to what steel a knife is using.
For example
I buy a standard Buck knife and know what to expect from the blade ( of course I do know what it is ) I have no clue what steel my Vic's use but don't care because I know they work, case is the same thing.
A different company might treat the same steel differently so there's no reason for me to seek out a particular steel.

Call me crazy, but my knives work for me so that's how I am.
 
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I've actually had less problems with Spyderco's steel overall than most other production companies, I think I'm just used to the FFG they like to use. ZT's S35VN seems like it's a wee bit softer, and being a ZT it also has a thicker edge. I had one helluva time free handing my 0900, luckily the Lansky did the trick on that(first time I've used it since I learned how to freehand).

Pretty much every production company heat treats differently(already stated), but geometry tends to play a pretty significant role as well.
 
I've had similar experiences with S30v. I have had a Spyderco Manix II and Benchmade Volli for the past 3 years, both in S30V. During that time I have subjected both to similar amounts of use for: whittling, food prep, processing game, slicing cardboard boxes, and other normal tasks. I have only sharpened the Manix once and been able to consistently maintain a shaving edge with lansky/spyderco ceramic hones. The Manix holds its edge without flinching.

On the other hand, I have sharpened the Volli no less than 7 times. I use either a Norton Fine India stone, a King #1000 waterstone, or an EZ-Lap fine diamond stone until I feel a burr along the apex, then finish with my ceramic stones until I cannot feel a burr. Funny thing is the steel feels "soft" against the stones. I can get the Volli to shave arm hairs initially but it loses its "bite" almost immediately after light use on cardboard or contact with a wooden cutting board. Sometimes the darn thing seems to lose its edge after sitting in a drawer without being used after sharpening.

I know my experience is subjective, especially with a sample size of 2. I also know it's possible I am not properly removing the burr after sharpening the Volli. But I have grown gun shy of Benchmade's S30V because I have not had this problem with any of my other knives - my Manix II in S30V included.

* I do not mean to disparage Benchmade knives. I have a half-dozen or more Benchmades with which I have been, and continue to be, quite pleased (especially a Mini-Reflex I picked up last weekend).
 
Interesting. I've had no problems resharpening my CRK S35VN knives, if they came from the box with a good edge first. The difference with CRK is that they convex grind their edge bevels. They might also run their S35VN a bit softer than Spyderco does, although CRK did raise the hardness of their S35VN by a point or two in recent years. I will say that for me, Spyderco's S35VN blade (Native 5 LWT) is a little easier to touch up, but for me that has to do with the edge grind (Spyderco's edge bevels are ground thinner, sharper and flat V ground, as opposed to convex).

Jim
 
S35vn taken to 60-61rc seems to perform best in folders. It seems production knife companies are really doing a solid jobs with current heat treats. I own a few Griptillian’s in 154cm (newer models) and they get razor sharp easily. Recently, I sharpened a pair of Griptillian’s for friends that date back to The early 2000’s. I found them more difficult to sharpen and had trouble putting a crisp edge on both.
 
Yes, they do seem to act quite differently depending on how it's heat treated. For example, I just spent well over 3 hours reprofiling the edge on a Freeman 451 flipper in S35VN with diamond stones on a KME, and each stroke of the stone felt like it was just skimming off the surface of the blade. Meanwhile, reprofiling and sharpening S35VN from other companies might only take me 1 hour. The Freeman seems like it was far, far harder than other S35VN I've experienced. Microtech is another company that seems to run their production heat treats significantly harder than most other companies.

BTW: "S35VN" is "CPM S35VN". It's a product of Crucible Industries, but some knife companies leave off the "CPM" because it saves space.
 
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I had the same problem, and made the mistake of getting rid of my CRK knives for a short time a while back. I realized that I myself was the issue, I believe their edges are convex from the factory and I was sharpening with the assumption it was a standard “V” grind. Couldn’t get it sharp to save my life. Anything past a light stropping was basically useless. Got mad. Got rid of it. Then, realized what and where I was going so wrong and can now get the three CRK knives I own shaving sharp with zero issues in no time. This may not be your issue at all, but I thought I would share my experiences.
 
Actually, they were all completely different knives using the same steel. To answer your original question... each prod company that you mentioned uses somewhat different blade and edge geometries. The thickness of the blade at the edge, the type of grind the blade has, the type of edge (v-grind, chisel grind, convex grind) the intent of the knife manufacturer when designing that particular model, and the HT that each company wants applied to its steel will all affect how a knife cuts in different conditions and how it needs to be maintained.

A Sebenza in S35VN wants a bit different sharpening technique than a Spyderco Native or a ZT. In spite of the fact that CRK recommends using a Sharpmaker in the 20 dps setting, that's not always the best way to sharpen a Sebenza. But it is a good way to sharpen a Native and it does work for some ZTs, if their edge angles are close enough to the Sharpmaker's two settings to get the job done.

Know the knife... understand the edge... apply the right technique... and S35VN is a fine steel.
 
Howdy folks!

Man, its been forever since I've posted here.

I got a question I'm dying to ask, so here goes.
Mind you, I have NO prejudices in these companies, nor do I work for either. The names are used purely for story-sake.

About 6 years ago, I bought my first CPM-S35VN knife, a Spyderco Native 5 G-10.
I had no issues with sharpening it at all. I could get it to shave on a Cheapo Lansky System.

Fast forward 2 years, and I got my second.
A Chris Reeve Sebenza 21.
I couldn't get this darn thing sharp to save my life. I read, I learned, I asked, I posted threads, you name it.
Did the sharpie trick, bought Diamond stones, stropped, etc.
I tried every method under the sun and I could still run my finger right down the edge.
Long story short, I traded it away for different stuff.

About a year after that, I bought my 3rd. A ZT-0450 in S35VN. No CPM on this one.
A bit hard to sharpen, but I can get it to just barely shave.

At this point after having 3 knives in the same steel, all 3 acted differently.

I decided to never buy S35VN again.

Until about a week ago.

I ended up at "That store for PROfessional BASS fisherman" :D and naturally I gravitated to the knife counter.

I ended up leaving with a Native 5 LW in CPM-S35VN.
Lemme tell you what....
This thing came outta the box ready to split atoms.
I used it to cut tires shortly after purchasing it. (Figured I'd push I hard to see if I had similar results with the steel).
It got a bit dull, so I set off to sharpen it that night, nervously ready to spend hours there.
20 or 30 passes each side with a Sharpmaker and Fine-white stones, and I could shave the eyebrows off a housefly mid-flight with It.

Thats 4 knives, from 3 different companies.
Do I just suck at sharpening, or is Spyderco the only company that knows how to make decent CPM-S35VN?

Do steels really act THAT different between companies? Its like each one was a COMPLETELY different steel altogether!

Each knife company may be using a different heat treat. But that is not why you couldn’t get the chris reeve sharp.

The reason you couldn’t get the chris reeve sharp is because it has a convex edge grind. That means you were likely only hitting the shoulders of the edge and not the apex.

As for the zt; sometimes I get a knife with a funky edge that is difficult for me to sharpen. As long as a knife has an even flat V shaped edge I find it much easier to get sharp.

Also when you say “cheap lansky” are you talking about the lansky box with the rods you put into the slots which sets the two rods at specific angled Vs? If the knives total edge angle inclusive is wider than the highest angle setting on the lansky box then you won’t hit the apex. You’ll only hit the shoulders.
 
They are all cpm if it's s35vn. Regardless each company has a different heat treatment. Not sure why you couldn't sharpen one over the other. Either the skills or stones or combo of both. Alot of people in general have issues sharpening powdered super steel. Id say it's got a learning curve. Best to use diamonds to make it faster and more crisp edges. Diamond strops a must unless debuting on a stone. Being that most of the super steels have 3% or more Vanadium, the diamond will cut it since it's harder. Diamond lansky stones have worked fine for some. Though that doesnt help if the angle isn't right or not apexed and or the bur not removed.

Also have you checked your angles in the clamped lansky system? This could be your issue since the blade of some knives won't be the same when flipped to the other side while clamped in.
 
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Sounds like user error to me. Sharpening is a difficult skill to master.
Maybe so.
I was indeed aware of the CRK's being convex. Thats the main reason I bought diamond stones.
The sharpie was telling me that it was ground flat.
Don't know, cant tell now being that its gone.
But nonetheless, I appreciate all the replies!
Good to know I'm not completely crazy.
 
Each knife company may be using a different heat treat. But that is not why you couldn’t get the chris reeve sharp.

The reason you couldn’t get the chris reeve sharp is because it has a convex edge grind. That means you were likely only hitting the shoulders of the edge and not the apex.

As for the zt; sometimes I get a knife with a funky edge that is difficult for me to sharpen. As long as a knife has an even flat V shaped edge I find it much easier to get sharp.

Also when you say “cheap lansky” are you talking about the lansky box with the rods you put into the slots which sets the two rods at specific angled Vs? If the knives total edge angle inclusive is wider than the highest angle setting on the lansky box then you won’t hit the apex. You’ll only hit the shoulders.
I was using the "Crock-Stick Turn box".
I have long since moved on to either freehand or Sharpmaker.
And I knew about the convex. Thanks though!
 
I was using the "Crock-Stick Turn box".
I have long since moved on to either freehand or Sharpmaker.
And I knew about the convex. Thanks though!

Well good luck sharpening a convex with those methods. You would have to remove a ton of material to get the edges into a flat V.

The best way to sharpen convex edges is actually sandpaper glued flat on a mouse pad and then using edge trailing (stropping) strokes.

Also the lansky turnbox and sharpmaker (when usinf the angled jig) are not true sharpeners. Rather they are more “sharp keepers”. They are only really useful for putting a microbevel on the edge. Problem is if your edge is wider than 40 degrees inclusive you will only be able to hit the shoulders of the edge.
 
Well good luck sharpening a convex with those methods. You would have to remove a ton of material to get the edges into a flat V.

The best way to sharpen convex edges is actually sandpaper glued flat on a mouse pad and then using edge trailing (stropping) strokes.

Also the lansky turnbox and sharpmaker (when usinf the angled jig) are not true sharpeners. Rather they are more “sharp keepers”. They are only really useful for putting a microbevel on the edge. Problem is if your edge is wider than 40 degrees inclusive you will only be able to hit the shoulders of the edge.
Thats good to know, even now.
I'll remember that if I really jack-up one of my bevels.
Luckily, I'm starting to get the hang of freehand sharpening.
Id have been on my sharpmaker for hours not knowing that :D.
FWIW, I use a Norton Pick-A-Pike stone. Coarse/fine "lubed" with tap water.
Should I use oil on it instead?
 
Thats good to know, even now.
I'll remember that if I really jack-up one of my bevels.
Luckily, I'm starting to get the hang of freehand sharpening.
Id have been on my sharpmaker for hours not knowing that :D.
FWIW, I use a Norton Pick-A-Pike stone. Coarse/fine "lubed" with tap water.
Should I use oil on it instead?

Is it advertised as a water stone or an oil stone? If its a water stone I find it helps if you have a little tub and submerge the whole stone under water for a while before using it.
 
Does not matter if the edge is convexed or v-shaped especially if you are sharpening using diamonds. All you need is a bit time and skills to maintain a consistent sharpening angle. I cannot imagine 3-4 hours are needed to sharpen a s35vn blade.
 
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