Samurai Swords - FORGED and FOLDED Steel

Z

zinje

Joined
Oct 2, 2002
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17
Hi!

I am trying to learn more about functional battle ready samurai swords. When websites refer to forged-folded steel. What does it mean?

Is there a difference in forged steel versus folded?
What kind of steel is being used?
Which is better?

I hope I am not asking to much, but just wanted more information.

Zinje
 
I am far from an expert but basically as I understand it all folded steel is forged, but not all forged steel is folded. :D :confused:

Folded steel would be damascus, two different steels forged together to form a single piece, then etched to show a pattern.

Many types of steel can be forged into a knife. It simply means that the steel was heated and bashed into the general shape of the blade rather than ground away.

As to which is better? I am not real sure.
 
ErikD said:
as I understand it all folded steel is forged, but not all forged steel is folded.
Click to expand...

This would seem right.

However from my limited understanding old traditional Japanese swords are basically all folded steel - since folding in forging was part of the steel processing/purification.

Traditional method was to use iron ingots/pieces and forge them with coal fires to introduce carbon to make steel. The steel was beaten flat and folded to maintain a reasonable size - beaten flat and folded again etc.

Folded steel would be damascus, two different steels forged together to form a single piece, then etched to show a pattern.
Click to expand...

This folding purification process does not necessarily involve different steel types to deliberately get the "damacus" pattern - but because of the non-homogeneity of the material, subtle patterns can be seen in the steel - and I am sure in the "legendary" class of Japanese swords - some patterns were deliberately cultivated - but this was purely from the practical folding process as opposed to forging different steels to get a particular "damacus" pattern.

Different steels, however, were used to give the blade strength - but this is more in the laminated, "san-mai", sandwich type process - as shown in this link -

BLADE LAMINATION METHODS

A very worthwhile reference site with a wealth of information is:

Richard Stein's Japanese Sword Guide

(save/bookmark it)

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
 
Steel is folded by forging it. Traditional Japanese swords were made with rather crude and impure steel and so were folded over and over to distribute the carbon throughout the blade and to literally beat the crud out of it. The method and style that the smiths used to fold the steel produced visible patterns in the surface of the polished sword blade and different schools of sword smithing and different smiths produced different types or patterns of grain in the blades.

I'm not sure about the term "battle ready" as it is generally a hype term used to lure unsuspecting or uneducated potential buyers. There is no standard definition of "battle ready" so don't get caught up in a merchants use of misleading terms to get you to buy.

Modern steel is created to exacting specs and chemistry. While folded steel exhibits a cool texture and grain and an interesting hada (or grain pattern) it is not better than good monosteel if it is heat treated properly. The ancient smiths needed to forge and fold their steel to get a viable product...modern sword makers can choose to do the same but there are few advantages other than pure cosmetic appeal to a customer. The best modern made pattern welded steels (so called Damascus) are excellent if heat treated properly but I have not seen any proof that damascus steel will out perform good monosteel. There is still some debate as to whether or not a forge blade is inherently better than one made by stock removal but I can tell you from experience that a good stock removal blade is every bit as strong and viable as a forged blade.


Brian
 
As far as brands are concerned i am only familiar with the ones made by cold steel, those hanwei paul chen swords and a manufacture called valiant armoury which seem to have very affordable functional swords.

Do you guys have any input on these brands?
 
I own a few blades from the hanwei forge, and I am VERY happy with them. The Practical and Practical Plus katanas are a great deal, and are made with a very nice carbon steel (1040 I believe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) They are differentially hardened so that the edge is extremely hard and the back is relatively soft. This makes for a very reliable sword.
The ColdSteel Katanas, although I have not personally held one, I hear to be very comfortable. There blades are not differentially hardened, and thus do not have the awesome temper line that you see in the hanwei swords.
Stay away from valiant, I have heard bad things.
For what it's worth, my money is on the Hanwei blades. Good peices, and good deals.
-KC
 
zinje said:
I found these guys over the interent and have nice looking Katana's.
http://www.sekiryu.co.jp/fukkoku/index-e.htm
Does not say if they are functional or not.
Click to expand...
english site is www.samurai-swords.com

blades are described as a zinc alloy in the several I viewed
"Blade Special Zinc & HIIRI & Thin edge finish"

zinc alloys often used to produce swords for iado practice & for display
(hamon would be 'fake')
so cannot be used for cutting;
so not 'functional' in the usual sense.

This site:
http://www.dguertin.com/
presents historical recreations of Japanese swords

good pix
good prices
price depends on type of steel & hardening

bought a very nice knife there
but otherwise can't say anything about the company
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On swordforum.com Bugei is generally thought of as better than Last Legend. I think there's some bias involved, because LL strays from traditional designs to make better cutters. However they may not be as "tough" as Bugei, being made especially for cutting tameshigiri. I have a Cold Steel and for the price it is decent, traditional-looking. I'd get a high end Paul Chen or Bugei instead of Cold Steel, next time. If looks don't matter, Rob Criswell makes an excellent tactical katana- same price range as Cold Steel and made of A2 tool steel, super cutters. Himalayan Imports makes a cheap, non-traditional, tough as nails katana as well, which cuts better than my Cold Steel. Dynasty Forge is a newer outfit that makes some spectacular looking blades, and the owners are quite friendly. I haven't heard from any owners of their blades yet though.
 
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