Samuri ladies knives

[Bonzaibill]

I am an old man who doesn't get enough abuse at home ,so I want to expand . When I was a kid I remember all those old little two piece minature Samurai swords with the little silk tassels that every lumber yard used to give away and the old mk 1 bayonet copies with the colored plastic handles with a dragon you won at the carnival , toys. I always wondered where they came from , the story behind them . So about 15 years ago I started watching them and then even started buying them , I know what your thinking , but wait they didn't cost anything and I'm getting a large collection . Very soon I started getting stuff that didn't look like anybody's toy . I started getting those little 2 piece wooden knives with 3 to 4 inch , 3/8 wide , 1 deep blade and with a genuine looking hamon line, serious looking little knives with a carved and hand painted dragons on the 7"scabbard and handle and usually a red painted fuller on the blade . So I find an article and it mentions Seppuku as not exclusively the province of male samurai . Ladies were also required to die to protect their honor , but not required to slit their bellies a wrist or neck will do . These little knives would be perfect ,The female symbol is Phoenix and the color is green . The male symbol is that draggon and the color is red , why they both appear on these little knives, because it is time to act as a man . It is my belief these little knives were part of a pre war Samuari ladies dowry , never meant to be used , but symbolic . It"s the industrailized 30's yet the men still prize their swords and Samuri swords and hari kari knives ,

If you think I went over the edge above , buckle up. Next I started buying double edge daggers 5" to 6" inches up to 1.5 wide again with a good looking hamon and what certainly looked to me to be individual horinono draggons . They either had a plain wood handle or a red ,white and green celluoid handles and looked like refugees from a circus , except on a Real killing knife . I believe these were produced to be weapons to kill the invading americans ,but of course never used , I talked with 2 gentlemen I bought from ,one occupied Japan vet and one Korean war vet who said they were surrendered by japanese citizens . I have also bought a ladies set of both knives and a beautifully made little fan . There has got to be a few vets out there with info . I am doing this to promote my own collection , these things are already starting to go up and nobody knows what they are . Be gentle, the jappanese sword society has already told me they are Chinese , something I know to be false . These are not machine made as length and width are different on each one. All weapons were surrendered on order of the emperor at the occupation.

Well ,there it is , nothing but a theory with a few feathers , the key lies in trying to understanding foreign cultures. I don't expect to convince you all , but these things are still a huge bargain and every collector should have one of those hand cut dragons on a nice ladies dagger . I would be glad to post pictures ,if someone would tell me how ? Thanks for your time guys I am going to need a defender is there one out there ?

 

[jc57]

Find a free photo hosting site. I use Imgur.com. Create an account. Upload pics there. Copy the link that says it is for bbCode. Paste the link in your post.

 

[Alberta Ed]

Very interesting. I remember as a kid those little two piece wooden scabbard knives; I think we had one around for a letter opener (this was back in the Dark Ages when people actually sent letters in the mail ). You might find more information in The Japanese Sword Guide site: http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm.

 

[killgar]

Like one of these?

I had one as a teenager. I figured it was a letter opener (made in Japan), but the blade was very sharp and it appeared to have a heat treat. So I removed the tassel, painted the handle and scabbard black, and I attached it under the collar of my leather motorcycle jacket with just the handle sticking down and out. I carried it like that for years and used it as a handy little utility knife that I could pull out, cut something, and stick back in with ease. The blade stuck securely in the scabbard, and it was very light, so it never fell out. It was also small enough that it mostly went unnoticed by others. I don't recall what became of it, lost to the ages.

It looks like they still make them (wood handles and scabbards). But without the artistic/painted embellishments. I saw some on Amazon.

Welcome to Bladeforums Bonzaibill

And since I'm strolling down memory lane on knife-like objects I had as a teen, I also had one of these little daggers (made in Mexico). But I didn't carry it, it was only good for cleaning my fingernails and stirring the burnt pot in my pipe/bong (hey, I was a teenager ). That too was lost to the ages (Hmm, maybe if I had smoked less pot I wouldn't have lost these things. Could be ). I particularly miss that little dagger.

 

[jfk1110]

K KenHash
Anything you know about these?????
Pretty neat.

 

[KenHash]

Without seeing photos of the knives the OP mentions I can not say anything for sure.
But, from the text alone there appears to be some misunderstanding/presumptions about the topic.

1. Tassles, Dragons and red colored fullers generally indicate either (A) low quality cheap Japanese export products 1960/70s, or
(B) Chinese made similar products from a later date. Tassles on the ends of the handle are a traditional Chinese feature.

2. These cheap export products have nothing to do with the knives carried by women of the Samurai class. The women carried the shortest version
of the Tanto class, known as a Kaiken written 懐剣　meaning pocket/purse sword. In the earliest translations of Japanese into English it was
transcribed as "Kwaiken". But it is correctly read Kaiken".
They were expected to be able to defend themselves if needed, and in the event that Seppuku was called for, their Kaiken would be used, The proper procedure for seppuku for women was to slash their neck from the side. About the only reason that a Samurai family woman may do so would be in connection with a dishonor brought upon her husband or fanily name. Women were never ordered from higher ups to commit seppuku, as that it itself was not a right women had,
A girl from a Samurai family in being married off into another fanmily would be given a Kaiken to protect herself and the honor of her new family. There was also an underlying tone that she should not return under any form of disgrace.
Some real examples of Kaiken:

3. Military Veterans who were stationed in Japan are mostly a poor source of knowledge. So many of them bought cheap swords, many with fake signatures and brougt them back. Of course some brought back the real thing but most were Guntos.

4. Doubke edged daggers with a real hamon are rare to non-existant. No blades weapons were "made for the invading Americans". By 1945 when that was becoming a real possibility the shortage of metals and other raw materials was so severe that civilians were being trained with bamboo spears.

Would like to see photographs of these knives in question. But seems alot more "story" than "knife".

 

[jfk1110]

Without seeing photos of the knives the OP mentions I can not say anything for sure.
But, from the text alone there appears to be some misunderstanding/presumptions about the topic.

1. Tassles, Dragons and red colored fullers generally indicate either (A) low quality cheap Japanese export products 1960/70s, or
(B) Chinese made similar products from a later date. Tassles on the ends of the handle are a traditional Chinese feature.

2. These cheap export products have nothing to do with the knives carried by women of the Samurai class. The women carried the shortest version
of the Tanto class, known as a Kaiken written 懐剣　meaning pocket/purse sword. In the earliest translations of Japanese into English it was
transcribed as "Kwaiken". But it is correctly read Kaiken".
They were expected to be able to defend themselves if needed, and in the event that Seppuku was called for, their Kaiken would be used, The proper procedure for seppuku for women was to slash their neck from the side. About the only reason that a Samurai family woman may do so would be in connection with a dishonor brought upon her husband or fanily name. Women were never ordered from higher ups to commit seppuku, as that it itself was not a right women had,
A girl from a Samurai family in being married off into another fanmily would be given a Kaiken to protect herself and the honor of her new family. There was also an underlying tone that she should not return under any form of disgrace.
Some real examples of Kaiken:

3. Military Veterans who were stationed in Japan are mostly a poor source of knowledge. So many of them bought cheap swords, many with fake signatures and brougt them back. Of course some brought back the real thing but most were Guntos.

4. Doubke edged daggers with a real hamon are rare to non-existant. No blades weapons were "made for the invading Americans". By 1945 when that was becoming a real possibility the shortage of metals and other raw materials was so severe that civilians were being trained with bamboo spears.

Would like to see photographs of these knives in question. But seems alot more "story" than "knife".
[/QUOTE



Thanx...
Always some great info!

 

[Bonzaibill]

K KenHash
Anything you know about these?????
Pretty neat.

Dear Ken
Try to have an open mind , a kaiken is a classic mans dagger , very proper to slit your belly . Yours looks just like the old pilot daggers , clearly a mans knife. It's the 30's no one is expecting any woman to actually kill themselves because they were dishonored, and those swords wern't really useful anymore . Yes they became what you are refering to , they didn't start that way . These little knives have the red fuller . brass habaki and were cute , in short a womans knife and a trousseau item . No I don't expect soldiers to be weapons experts , especially of a foreign culture , but i believe they know how they got them to begin with . I am not confused about anything I may be wrong but it is just a theory . I'll get some pictures up and we all can decide , like I said the Japanese sword society has already told me it was something I ate . I have been collector myself for 30 years and have seen a few thousand knives myself . I welcome this debate it is the only way I can convince anyone of anything , So hit me with your questions ,Bro Best Regards Bill

 

[KenHash]

Dear Ken
Try to have an open mind , a kaiken is a classic mans dagger , very proper to slit your belly . Yours looks just like the old pilot daggers , clearly a mans knife. It's the 30's no one is expecting any woman to actually kill themselves because they were dishonored, and those swords wern't really useful anymore . Yes they became what you are refering to , they didn't start that way . These little knives have the red fuller . brass habaki and were cute , in short a womans knife and a trousseau item . No I don't expect soldiers to be weapons experts , especially of a foreign culture , but i believe they know how they got them to begin with . I am not confused about anything I may be wrong but it is just a theory . I'll get some pictures up and we all can decide , like I said the Japanese sword society has already told me it was something I ate . I have been collector myself for 30 years and have seen a few thousand knives myself . I welcome this debate it is the only way I can convince anyone of anything , So hit me with your questions ,Bro Best Regards Bill

Sorry Bill, but the Kaiken was not a "man's knife". It was a "Purse Knife" carried in it's Koshirae by women of the samurai class openly in their obi (sashi). Where men carried it was when members of the lower than samurai class (who were not permitted to wear swords) carried them in their shirasaya inside their clothes concealed.
The samurai men wore their katanas and wakizashi openly. And they could also wear larger tantos as well. The kaiken was the smallest in that categpry.

The knives you described, if they do not look anything like the photos I posted, are not kaiken from the samurai era. None had red fullers or tassles on the ends.
If the JSSUS (Japanese Sword Scociety of the U.S.) already saw your photos and deemed them as "not authentic:" I am not sure what qualification you have to overule their view. However, I look forward to seeing your photos.

I'm not here to debate anything Bill. Japanese is not a foreign culture to me. Some things you are better off just taking my word for it.

 

[Bonzaibill]

Japanese knives I referenced

 

[Bonzaibill]

Thanks for everyone's time I think I posted the pictures . You have all been very kind to me and I appreciate your restraint , Ken . If the situation were reversed I would not have been so kind . I know that you're expert and beyond that generous with your knowledge and experience .I am very grateful to get your opinion. I agree with everything , repeat , everything you said including the traditional description of a Kaiken . First time someone told me I was full of shite I was 8 years old in the cub scouts. If you don't promptly make mincemeat out of me I'll be encouraged.

 

[KenHash]

Thanks for everyone's time I think I posted the pictures . You have all been very kind to me and I appreciate your restraint , Ken . If the situation were reversed I would not have been so kind . I know that you're expert and beyond that generous with your knowledge and experience .I am very grateful to get your opinion. I agree with everything , repeat , everything you said including the traditional description of a Kaiken . First time someone told me I was full of shite I was 8 years old in the cub scouts. If you don't promptly make mincemeat out of me I'll be encouraged.

You're welcome Bill. BF is a great source of blade knowledge, as there are literally "experts" in just about every area of the topic. Real ones. We are all still always learning.
And thanks for posting the photos, I am afraid I would have to agree with the earlier assessment that that they are Post-WWII Chinese products
using stereotype "oriental" decorations. They do not look to me as being Japanese at all. Just my opinion.