Sandpaper and mousepad sharpening technique

PIndelicato

PIndelicato

Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Messages
1,577
Hi all,

Longtime lurker, infrequent poster here!

I have an Orange Game Warden that I decided to try sharpening with the mousepad/sandpaper technique I've read about frequently here. I had previously touched up the edge on my Sharpmaker, and it was not razor sharp but would shave some hair from my arm with a bit of effort. I started with 320 grit, then went to 600, and finally 1500 (the only options I could find at a local hardware store, I do not yet have a leather strop.)

I've made several passes with each grit of paper, and the blade feels sharp'ish and will cut paper or catch a fingernail, but won't shave any hair now. I've tried just the weight of the blade, using a bit of light pressure, etc. without much difference in the results.

-What am I doing wrong?

-At which grit should I expect the blade to start shaving? ie, are the finer grits just for more polish and refinement, or am I not using a fine enough grit to get to the final sharpness? Do I need to strop to get it sharp??

Thanks for any advice or guidance!
 
Hi,

The mousemat method is for sharpening convex edges. Your warden will have a flat bevel, not convex.

You are probably making the edge even thicker along with slightly convexing it, as the curve of the sandpaper will take material off both the top and edge of the bevel.

If you want to keep a flat bevel, best to put the sandpaper on a hard, perfectly flat surface. Many people use glass, I use an aluminium block.

You can convert your edge to convex (best choice IMHO), but you need to start by putting more pressure only on the top of the bevel, not on the edge. You don't want to touch the edge at first because it will make it thicker, and it's too thick to start with. I use a harder rubber mat, or heavy leather, as backing for the sandpaper when doing this. A mousemat is a bit too giving. Alternatively, I just do it freehand, using a hard backing and 'rolling' the knife upwards on the paper, describing the convex edge I want on the blade by lifting the spine higher as I move back on the paper.

Have you checked this thread? It shows a really good method, although a bit daunting if you've not done things like that to a blade before!

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=506342

Cheers,
Rick.
 
Thanks for the feedback so far! I have been following that thread, and contemplated posting this there, but didn't want to hijack so decided to make a new post.

I had the impression that the sandpaper method I was following would actually put the convex edge on, and that the preliminary stone work as shown in the referenced thread was just to thin out the bevel on a larger, thicker knife for which I thought my OJ warden would not qualify.

I'll try modifying my technique a bit per your suggestion...should I start with 320 or ??? And where (grit-wise) should it start to get really sharp and shave? Should I expect and work for a burr with sandpaper?
 
If I could add something...its real important to start with a grit the will be course enough to do what you want and not move to the next grit until the knife is sharp. At 320 with sandpaper you should be able to shave already.

320 is also course enough to do edge bevel reprofile work. But don't move on from 320 until the bevel is done and the knife is sharp.

Also pay attention to the feel of the stroke on the paper. You really want to work the shoulder not the edge...if that make any sense at all.
 
I don't have a warden, but I know the stock is quite thick. The edges on all Busses need thinning to make them good slicers in my opinion.

The sandpaper method will put the convex edge on if you just follow the current bevel, but like I said it will make the edge thicker, and it's already too thick.

I usually start with 240 grit. Make sure to only work the top of the bevel, so that you gradually widen the bevel as you work. It does take some time, and you need to clean off or change the paper frequently as infi gums it up.

Eventually, you should start getting the new, convexed bevel to reach the edge of the blade - at a narrower angle than the original edge. Once you get there, use very gentle pressure at the edge. You don't want to round it off, just bring the two sides together sharply. I tend to work slowly, and change sides often to avoid my wrists aching too much. I do get a wire edge (burr) doing it this way and make sure I have it all along the edge before working it from the other side.

To be honest, the method in the tutorial is much quicker than my usual, but I'm a coward when it comes to scratching up blades. Plus I'm too cheap to buy the stones.

If you do it my way, work your way to finer grits once you are at the edge. Each change should be continued until you've removed the scrathces from the previous grit. Don't skip too many grades at once or you'll be there for weeks trying to get the scratches out. You can also change to a softer backing once you have reached the edge and got a good convex, but be careful not to round the edge. (have I said that before?) A softer backing will let you work the whole convex bevel at a stroke, with less pressure than you would need to do that on leather.

You should be able to shave at 320 grit. I take mine to 1200 paper (it's the finest I can get easily) then use diamond grinding paste on cardboard or leather, down to 1 micron. Then dry strop.

The edge by then is polished and hair-popping sharp. Almost takes the tops off my fine arm hairs, shreds the tops off my chest hairs (the wife gives my some funny looks though).
 
Justabuyer said:
If I could add something...its real important to start with a grit the will be course enough to do what you want and not move to the next grit until the knife is sharp. At 320 with sandpaper you should be able to shave already.

320 is also course enough to do edge bevel reprofile work. But don't move on from 320 until the bevel is done and the knife is sharp.

Also pay attention to the feel of the stroke on the paper. You really want to work the shoulder not the edge...if that make any sense at all.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, it makes perfect sense. I enjoyed following your tutorial; it's great to see how others do it. Makes me want to buy the stones and give it a try.
 
Man, this is frustrating! I just spent about an hour working on it, trying different things (all with 320 paper). All I am rewarded with on attempts at shaving is the occasional suicidal hair and lots of dead skin flakes! I also can't seem to get a wire edge working with 320 grit.

I'm primarily working with very light pressure, and at a very small angle (ie, the spine of the knife is not very far off the surface of the paper) for fear of rounding the edge and making it too thick Is my angle too low? Do I need to use some pressure? Do I just suck!?!
 
After hearing this, I'll never buy a Busse. Not that I can see paying that much for a knife anyway that needs the edge thinned and doesn't even come with a sheath. If I'm going to throw down the kind of cash it takes to buy a Busse, it's going to be right when I take it out of the box. But, maybe if I made twice what my salary is, I'd have the "money is no object" attitude, get a Busse or three, and buy a Harley Davidson instead of a Honda. Maybe this is all just the bitter complaining of one of the lower middle class masses. Oh well, I can always afford a Ka-Bar....and they've got Ethan Becker on board now.
 
PJ keep at at it. And keep the sandpaper wet and clean. That helps too.

Are you feeling the difference between the shoulder, the bevel, and the edge?
 
melt said:
After hearing this, I'll never buy a Busse. Not that I can see paying that much for a knife anyway that needs the edge thinned and doesn't even come with a sheath. If I'm going to throw down the kind of cash it takes to buy a Busse, it's going to be right when I take it out of the box. But, maybe if I made twice what my salary is, I'd have the "money is no object" attitude, get a Busse or three, and buy a Harley Davidson instead of a Honda. Maybe this is all just the bitter complaining of one of the lower middle class masses. Oh well, I can always afford a Ka-Bar....and they've got Ethan Becker on board now.
Click to expand...

Whats your point here? All knives need to sharpened when used. I have never seen a adequate factory edge, all can be improved on.
 
melt said:
After hearing this, I'll never buy a Busse. Not that I can see paying that much for a knife anyway that needs the edge thinned and doesn't even come with a sheath. If I'm going to throw down the kind of cash it takes to buy a Busse, it's going to be right when I take it out of the box. But, maybe if I made twice what my salary is, I'd have the "money is no object" attitude, get a Busse or three, and buy a Harley Davidson instead of a Honda. Maybe this is all just the bitter complaining of one of the lower middle class masses. Oh well, I can always afford a Ka-Bar....and they've got Ethan Becker on board now.
Click to expand...

Rants really belong in W&C.

When you order a Busse, you can request a thinned edge of your choice.

I have no doubt you make more money than I do, it all comes down to what you want to spend money on.
 
P J 234 said:
Man, this is frustrating! I just spent about an hour working on it, trying different things (all with 320 paper). All I am rewarded with on attempts at shaving is the occasional suicidal hair and lots of dead skin flakes! I also can't seem to get a wire edge working with 320 grit.

I'm primarily working with very light pressure, and at a very small angle (ie, the spine of the knife is not very far off the surface of the paper) for fear of rounding the edge and making it too thick Is my angle too low? Do I need to use some pressure? Do I just suck!?!
Click to expand...

Have you tried the black marker on the edge technique? Color your entire secondary bevel and edge with a Sharpie, then do a couple strokes with your sandpaper, then stop and visually examine your bevel. Is there still black ink at the edge? It sounds a lot like your sanding isn't even hitting the edge yet.
 
Justabuyer said:
PJ keep at at it. And keep the sandpaper wet and clean. That helps too.

Are you feeling the difference between the shoulder, the bevel, and the edge?
Click to expand...

Hmm, that's new information! I've been using dry paper so far. Do I just keep it moist? Do I keep it clean by rinsing with water?

I think I feel the difference. I can't say that I clearly feel a shoulder, but I can certainly feel the edge. I'm trying to keep the knife spine fairly close to the paper...far enough off so as not to drag the entire blade surface, but low enough to not be dragging the edge either.

This has nothing at all to do with knife maker, knife model, or anything of the sort. I'm just trying to learn a new sharpening technique and change the edge on my knife.
 
Justabuyer said:
Whats your point here? All knives need to sharpened when used. I have never seen a adequate factory edge, all can be improved on.
Click to expand...

All factory edges certainly can be improved. But what I hear here (post #6 by Foxyrick, for example) is "The edges on all Busses need thinning to make them good slicers in my opinion."
 
Use the "felt pen trick" to check your progress. Paint the sides of your blade bevel with a marking pen. As you use your mouse pad see where ink is removed. You need some of it getting remove all the way up to the apex of your edge. If that is the only place that you are making contact you may be honing at too high an angle and making your edge more obtuse (not good). You want to see ink removed near the edge, but also up near the part of your blade bevel closer to the center of the blade.

On a mouse pad it is a particularly good idea to use light honing pressure, since otherwise the edge will depress too far into the pad and cause edge rounding. If your honing seems to be in the right area, but is going too slowly, you could try a stiffer pad and higher pressure. Try laying your 320 sandpaper onto a pad of paper or a smooth board. This will get you slight convexing, but allow you to use a bit higher pressure than on the mouse pad. It may also give you a more acute honing angle. Keep using the felt pen trick and don't let your honing angle get too high.
 
mikeymoto said:
Have you tried the black marker on the edge technique? Color your entire secondary bevel and edge with a Sharpie, then do a couple strokes with your sandpaper, then stop and visually examine your bevel. Is there still black ink at the edge? It sounds a lot like your sanding isn't even hitting the edge yet.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reminding me of this technique...I hadn't yet tried it. Result:

After less than five strokes, black ink still appeared at the very edge. After a few more strokes, just a faint line of ink is barely remaining at the edge.

Keep going, change to coarser grit, or change my angle of attack???
 
melt said:
All factory edges certainly can be improved. But what I hear here (post #6 by Foxyrick, for example) is "The edges on all Busses need thinning to make them good slicers in my opinion."
Click to expand...

As do all other heavy knives I have ever bought, and most lighter, smaller knives. Not limited to Busse knives at all. The edge one wants depends on how one uses or envisages using the knife. I'm not that hard on them, so thinning the edge for me is a good move.

Look at it this way: If you want a thick (therefore very resilliant, strong edge that keeps it's sharpness throughout heavy use), then Busse gives you that. If you want to thin it, to improve cutting at the expense of resilliance, you can. If Busse gave you a thin edge to begin with, you could only thicken it up by grinding the edge up and losing blade height. Not good.

Thinking as I do, with my personal opinions on the best edge for me, I still buy Busses for users. Why? Because they are the best. And I can customize the edge as I see fit.

P J 234, sorry for going off topic in your thread. Melt, if you want to discuss this any more, please start a new thread and leave this one to the OP's intent. Thanks.
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
Rants really belong in W&C.

When you order a Busse, you can request a thinned edge of your choice.

I have no doubt you make more money than I do, it all comes down to what you want to spend money on.
Click to expand...

I agree! I'm definitely trailer park ruling class, but it's not what I have coming in, it's how I invest it. No Regrets!;)
 
This is all great info. I love sharpening my Busses, with sharpmaker and sandpaper. Maybe it is my imagination but there is almost something liquidy about infi in the way it looks and feels and the way it responds to honing. I love the stuff. I also like CPM3V. I find them similar ina way. Anyway for anyone using sandpaper it is a good idea to tape up your blade. It will protect it from scratching when you are reprofiling the shoulders of the convex edge. Just a thought
 
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