Satin Finish??

JohnnyDarko

JohnnyDarko

Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
113
I feel like an idiot, but what is involved in applying a satin finish. I have seen some awesome work by Ban and Garth, but is it polishing or an actual spray on finish?
 
various ways to get it done, but it is not any kind of spray on application. it is a level of finish on bare metal.

ban uses belts of various grits on a belt sander.

ive used a scotchbrite wheel attached to a drill.


i'm not very good at it.
 
Belts would be a lot easier,

but when I strip blades I use sheets of sand paper and go over it until I find a level I like
 
I see, when I use my belts the finish gets very shiny. I am thinking of getting some high grit and even a leather belt with compounds. I have heard that works for stropping. I just can't get that nice satin finish.
 
Satin finish looks a little better if you stop at 400 or 600 grit for sandpaper in my opinion. When you get into the higher grits, you are beginning to put a polish on the blade. Keep going with the higher and higher grits and you can get a mirror polish if you put the time in.

I put a satin finish with 400 grit sandpaper on a few of my knives. I just make sure to the move the paper back and forth in only one direction to get the most consistent finish.

JGON
 
JohnnyDarko said:
I see, when I use my belts the finish gets very shiny. I am thinking of getting some high grit and even a leather belt with compounds. I have heard that works for stropping. I just can't get that nice satin finish.
Click to expand...

You're going to get a mirror finish using belts you're using for sharpening, especially loaded leather. You need to establish your own grind lines, then refine them for a "brushed" look satin. There are belts designed specifically for that.
 
When someone comes out with a spray-on satin, please let me know! :D
 
Tony G said:
That will work nicely into your work week wardrobe to supplement your leather pants. :cool: :thumbup:

.
Click to expand...

I don't know about the leather pants thing. But i kind of like this outfit. :D

4a18a7f8-b5cf-40bc-b8f7-1520ffde2a25.jpg
 
230grains said:
You're going to get a mirror finish using belts you're using for sharpening, especially loaded leather. You need to establish your own grind lines, then refine them for a "brushed" look satin. There are belts designed specifically for that.
Click to expand...


+1 Pretty much.

-----------------


JohnnyDarko said: "...when I use my belts the finish gets very shiny. I am thinking of getting some high grit and even a leather belt with compounds."


It "Sounds" like you already have a belt sander??????

If so, what size?


You say your current belts leave a shiny finish - yet you imply you don't have high grit belts (???) which seems to imply you have medium or coarse grit belts (????).

I think there is a possibility (????) that you are using your belts beyond their ability to "Cut".

I consider 220 - 320 as medium grit belts that still grind, profile and refine shape. If these belts leave a "shiny" finish, they are most likely worn out. Normally, 220 - 320 grit leaves a rough to semi smooth satin finish for me.

Of course all belts become less and less effective as they become worn out and their sharp grits become worn and less effective.

The following is somewhat subjective, but my best attempt to describe from my perspective:

40 - 80 as extra coarse grit = heavy steel removal

100 - 150 as coarse grit = slower more controled steel removal

400 - 600 as medium high grit = start to sharpen / semi polishing

800 - 1000 (black/green compounds) as high/fine grit = polishing

Fine compounds (white or finer) = mirror polishing

If medium or coarse grit belts are leaving you a shiny finish, I would guess those belts are most likely worn out.

Worn out grits don't cut very well and tend to to mostly just "Rub" creating friction that builds up HEAT more than they cut. You need to be aware of the dangers of heat with belt sanders.... and keep a "Dunk" near your grinding to cool the blades.... especially if using worn out belts.

I understand being frugal with belts and such, but at some point they just don't get it done anymore.

I have needed to be so cheap lately that I have even used the back side of worn belts to load compounds on - I don't have as many leather belts as I would prefer..... yet.

Sharpening with a belt sander is one thing - I personally highly recommend sharpening with belt sanders if some learning tips and curves are taken into account prior to going after a quality knife that you care about - ie.: do a bit of research and then do some practice on a few cheap pieces of junk steel.
I HIGHLY recommend a leather belt for sharpening. I actually recommend having 2-4 belts - 1 for each various compound as you shouldn't mix your compounds on a belt.

For me, green and white compounds offer the best bang for the buck.

Green does a LOT of polishing / gets blades quite sharp.
White gets edges shaving sharp, easily push cut paper and even closer to mirror finish

Both of the above are plenty for most real world needs.

But, if you want to do edge parlour tricks/split hairs and such, you can get grits down to fractions of a micron.

----------

Satin finishing can be very easy with the right tools.

220 grit belts should visibly remove steel and leave a reasonably coarse cut/finish. 320 - 400 should still visibly cut, but they do start to smooth up the satin finish a bit.

So, you can get a nice satin finish with normal grinding belts, but I think there is a better option that is at least easier and more forgiving.

But, if you have INFI dimples and you are trying to get those out, that is a WHOLE different ball-game!

To remove INFI dimples, you have to "Grind" them out by removing a fair amount of steel. - Which is usuall easier done with 80 - 100 grit and then back down the line of finer grits to the finish you want.

You need to be reasonably proficient with the use of a belt sander or you will seriously risk doing damage to the grind lines and/or temper of the blade because to remove INFI dimples, you need to do a fair amount of grinding on the "Flats" of the blade. If you are not good with a belt sander, it is pretty easy to mess up the flats and/or the rest of the grinds.

If you have a knife that doesn't have INFI dimples OR you don't mind satin finishing over the INFI dimples which means you will see them, the EASIEST way I have seen to get a nice consistent satin finish is with Scotch-Brite Belts on a belt sander.

The Scotch Brite belts I am familiar with include:

Charcoal = Medium grit = Rough satin / light to moderate steel removal - somewhere between 220 - 320 grit, but about 25% as agressive and more forgiving.

Blue = Fine Grit = Smooth satin / very minor steel removal - probably somewhere around 400 grit (???), but less agressive and more forgiving.

White = Very Fine = ??? I don't have and haven't used, but i assume very fine satin and very minor steel removal. - probably around 600 - 800 grit (???)

You can remove INFI dimples with medium Scotch-Brite belts, but it would take a lot of time and you would likely start to change the grind lines with Scotch-Brite belts same as regular belts. Scotch-brite belts can and do sand/remove steel. They just don't remove as fast as some of the coarser sanding belts and they are more forgiving for a more consistant "Satin" finish. But, they will also "Round-over" corners to some degree because they are somewhat "Self-Padded". They have a dense sponge like ability to compress - which contours around corners and therefore rounds them over.


I have an old 4" x 36" sander that I use. I like the larger surface area for certain things. Mine has a LARGE flat platen surface on one side and I have modified the back of mine mine to be able to flip it over and convex on the back.

The PRO knife-makers favor 2"x72" belt sanders. And I am sure I can appreciate why. But, I have not been able to afford... yet.

A 2" wide belt with most any length would be fine for most knife-making tasks including grinding and satin finishing as well.
While I like my 1" belt (OK) for sharpening and many other tasks (I am sure I would prefer a 2"), I don't know how well the Scotch-brite belts would work on a 1" wide belt for satin finishing most knives. (????) But, I imagine it could be done with reasonable results.

For satin finishing with Scotch-Brite belts, I think the wider surface area would provide more consistant results / more consistant "scratch" lines.

But, Scotch-Brite belts are not cheap. They typically seem to be on the high end of pricing for similar sized belts.

On the other hand, they seem to last a reasonable amount of time.

Good luck.

.
 
DWRW that was a 5 dollar answer, I wish I had 5 Bucks. I am going to save that and use it. I have 150 grain belts. I have a 1" belt sander that I really like. I stripped and convexed my KZ2 using it and it worked great, just came out more shiny than satin, However I am going to get my hands on some more belts and try it out. Thanks for all the info that is going to help me a bunch in the years to come.:D:thumbup:
 
resinguy said:
Is there a source for ScotchBrite belts in size 1x30?
Click to expand...


Most of the knife-maker suppliers carry Scotch-Brite belts, but not in 1x30 that I have seen. However, I know 3M makes the belts in 1x30.

I would just do a Google Search and see what you can find.

I own a 1x30, but opted to purchase the Scotch-Brite belts for my 4x36 instead. So, I haven't purchased the 1x30 belts and I don't think the supplier I purchased the 4x36 belts carried the 1x30 belts. So, I can't recommend a supplier.

But, based on a Google search, here is "one" that I found (and have no experience with or reason to recommend - just found via Google - So, Caveat emptor".

Anyway, they appear to be available here:

http://www.nolansupply.com/bysubcategory.asp?category=Abrasives&supercategory=Surface+Conditioning+Belts&subcategory=3M+%26%23153%3B+Scotch-Brite%26%23153%3B+Surface+Conditioning+Belts%26nbsp%3B&type=False&specs=True

For $8.82 each - I assume plus shipping.

Good luck.

.
 
JohnnyDarko said:
DWRW that was a 5 dollar answer, I wish I had 5 Bucks. I am going to save that and use it. I have 150 grain belts. I have a 1" belt sander that I really like. I stripped and convexed my KZ2 using it and it worked great, just came out more shiny than satin, However I am going to get my hands on some more belts and try it out. Thanks for all the info that is going to help me a bunch in the years to come.:D:thumbup:
Click to expand...

Glad the info was somehow helpful.... I wish I could get $5 per post. I would post a LOT more! :thumbup: ;) .... no worries - I wasn't expecting anything in return. ;)


I haven't had the pleasure myself yet of using some of the "Preferred" belts of many knife-makers - Trizac Gator, Norton Norax/Blaze, etc. But, I have used a few Zirconia belts. They last longer than Aluminum Oxide. But, I hear the others are still better for knife grinding. For more info on belts, do some searching around on the knifemaker's forum: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=741



If you get EXTREMELY bored and want to read a lot more (go back to page 1 of the following thread, but here is page 9 with some info related to belt suppliers):

http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=183198&page=0&fpart=9&vc=1

.
 
230grains said:
Yes, but they won't run on your HF sander. They just won't move.

One of the reasons I bought my Kalamazoo 1x42
Click to expand...


That may be a fair statement and I believe it.

My Delta 4"x36" seems to have about twice the power or more than my Delta 1"x30" and more tension adjustibility (forgiveness) than my Delta 1"x30".

Without going outside, I don't remember the power ratings on my sanders. But, I doubt it matters. From what I have seen, the power ratings on some of these machines is questionable.

I think my 4"x36" is likely rated around 1/3 horsepower - same as the Baldor Motor on the Kalamazoo, but I would bet the quality Baldor motor on the Kalamazoo is more powerful. :o

A quick search shows the Harbor Freight motor listed at 1/3 horsepower - again same as listed for the Baldor motor on the Kalamazoo. I haven't used either the HF or the Kalamazoo, but from many posts I have read from users of the HF and the Kalamazoo, I can't believe the HF has NEAR the power of the Baldor motor used by Kalamazoo.

The 3m Scotch-Brite belts are thick, heavy and stiff - even though they give more under pressure due to the thickness - if that makes sense (????).

One of the advantages of the Kalamazoo (aside from a much better motor) is the Kalamazoo has a much better range of tension adjustibility compared to the little 1"x30" grinders. My little Delta 1"x30" grinders doesn't really even have what I call "True" tension adjustibility. It just has a tilt screw that functions as both an alignment and tension adjustment at the same time. I assume the HF 1"x30" is the same (????). That type of minor tension adjustment may not be enough to accomodate the thickness of the Scotch-Brite belts (?????).

That said, my Delta 1"x30" sander works fine with leather belts. The leather belts I have used are probably about 75% as thick as the Scotch-Brite belts I have, but the leather belts are stretchier and not as stiff as the Scotch-Brite Belts.

Usually, my 4"x36" will start the big heavy Scotch Brite belts on it's own. But, sometimes on start, the belt literally locks up the motor and I have to push the belt in the direction of rotation to get it going. Of course the 4"x36" belts are likely much stiffer and heavier than any 1" belt. And I doubt my 4"x36" grinder has as much power as the nice Baldor motors used by Kalamazoo (????) However, once my 4"x36" sander gets going, my 4"x36" grinder seems to be able to keep the belt moving without bogging down or locking up even under pressure.

But, some of the lesser powered 1"x30" belt sanders might not be able to handle the thick, heavy and stiff Scotch Brite belts (?????).

I have used a Delta SA-180 (1"x42") - I don't know the power numbers. I doubt the Delta 1"x42" has the power of the nice Baldor motor on the Kalamazoo, but it seems to have a lot more power than the 1"x30" sanders I have used - I assume (???) the Delta 1"x42" would likely turn the Scotch-Brite belts (????)

Unfortunately, your point about the 1'x30" sanders not being able to turn Scotch Brite belts might apply to MOST 1"x30" sanders (?????)

By any chance did you try "Push-Starting" the Scotch-Brite belt on your Harbor Freight to see how it would do? Will it get going and keep turning under use?
Or is it just way too tight and stiff for the HF 1"x30" to turn even if given a push start?

.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top