saturated solution of borax

F

Frontier Forge

Joined
Aug 25, 2002
Messages
138
Hi all
heres the deal I remember from some website about using liquid flux to use by dipping steel into prior to stacking and wiring together for the first weld. The instructions as i interpreted them where to take 1 gal. water bring to a boil and slowly add borax(20 mule team). Basically you stir wait,add, and repeat until no more borax will disolve. I did this untill half the box was used then while warm i pored it into a plastic paint can with lid. I went to the shop and looked at it. It had turned into a giant sugar cube. What happened ?? Is there a more specific formula?? Does this crap even work?? My dad is a silversmith he uses boric acid(ant killer) and borax, with denatured alchol added to make a paste. Applied with a needle to a joint and then hard solered with a h2o welder works trick....
 
What you did was make a supersaturated mixture of water and borax. When the solution cools, it can not hold all the dissolved borax in solution so it precipitates out (the sugar cube). What I have done is to use an old electric skillet (or buy one for $20) and fill it with water, heat up the water, dissolve all the borax you can in the hot water, and use the solution that way.

Use it hot! When you are done with it, turn off the skillet, and when it cools, your sugar cube will be back. When you want to use it again, heat up your skillet to redisolve all that borax that "fell" out of the solution. Add water as necessary.

I stack and wire my billet first then soak it in the hot water and borax mix.

I don't use this method anymore, I just made a big mess with it:D I just sprinkle the borax onto the hot billet and weld away!

Hope this helps.
 
I got the pretty crystals too. I just went ahead and made another solution and didn't heat it this time. I have a plastic tube hanging next to the spot that I weld the billits up. A few minutes after welding, I stir it up and stick the billit in for a few seconds (till the sizzle is gone). I still put the borax on it when it gets hot and let it melt into the cracks. And I still have a nice big crystal also. :)
 
very interesting concept.

I have never seen anyone disolve the borax before. Myself and the guys I know all just sprinkle the borax on while the metal is hot. It melts and runs into the cracks by capilary action. Im not sure how you spell it but we use anhydroxis borax ? I was told that is the stuff with the least water content.

What works the best I don't know. However We tend to use a curved refractory clay dish in the bottom of the forge when it gets hot you end up with a pool of molten borax some guys dip in that some just put
a new sprinkle each time and throw out the old after each session.

Has anyone else compared both methods and found one better and why is it better in your opinion?
 
Me I have always been a little afraid of water on my hot steel,even doing a wet forging I get a little spooked.Even though I have done it a bunch I still am afraid I will crack the steel.For me a 5 gallon bucket with 20 Mule team Borax in the bottom of it and a big metal mixing spoon to sprinkle the Borax over the hot billet,and another metal can of cast iron shavings beside that with a mixing spoon in it also, works great for me.

Now a question for you Frontier,What is the mix ratio ( recipie ) for your Dad's flux mix he uses for the silver and will it also work on other presious metals like nickel silver or gold?And also ,What is a H2O welder?,sounds interesting...
Bruce
 
I've done the dissolving of borax and water too, but it was for the use of dipping 1 1/4" & 1 1/2" cable into before heating. I was trying to get the borax all the way into the center strands of the core. It didn't appear to do any better, then to just apply dry borax at red heat 2 times before welding. Heating steel will actually suck melting borax into a billet, filling cracks and crevices, but its takes several reduceing in size heats to actually illiminate any inclusions. I've also dipped blades in heated water and borax to protect them during heat treating. This I found too, to be more trouble then it was worth. These are just my opinions and I know we all have one, but the only borax I use anymore is when I sprinkle it on a billet dry for making damascus.

Bill
 
Someone above asked about the ratio of flus that my dad uses I believe it to be 1/3 denature alchol 1/3 boric acid(pure, its sold as and and roach killer) and 2/3 Borax but he somtimes will add alchol to keep it as a paste( due to evaporation) This works with brass, copper, nickel, silver and steel, we just took some leftover random damasus forged it into 1/4" half rould fuller to make a size 12 ring and the solder and flux worked great.The flux paste goes on cold metal. As for gold he uses something from "bouget Brothers"(spelling ?) lapidary supply house. The water welder is trick its the size af a large car battery. It plugs into 110 theres two small tanks buit in one for flux/ alchol mix(comes from the company that makes machine,this mix is used as a drying/cleaning agent. The next tank holds filtered water. You turn the unit on and wait 10-15 seconds for the light to come on this indicates it ready to weld/braze. The machine produces hrydogen on as it used. The tourch head has on knob and handpiece is small heres the kicker the tips are actuall hypodermic needles from the drug store. This tip size heat about 1/8 on each side of a joint to be welded. Myt dad bout the smaller one geared for jewlery and such I think it obtains up to 2800 degrees(the tip doesnt get hot,gases are burned 3/4 away from point of tip) He pain 500 for small I understand they make bigger machines as well. Ill try to find a web site,however a person could do a web search for "water welder" Hope this helped
 
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