I know this is a forum for knives but I wonder if anyone (Dave?) can give me any info on the do's and don'ts of sharpening scissors (have had some requests for it lately.) And, no, I don't have the EP pro, just the apex, a 1x30 belt sander and the sharpmaker. Thanx
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scissor sharpening
- Thread starter basjoo
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D_R_Sharpening
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Hi basjoo,
Sharpening scissors is easy. Just like knives you either touch up the edge or re-create an edge bevel. For those of us getting paid to sharpen the latter is the only choice.
A Sharpmaker will do great touch-ups on scissors but it won't (unless you have many moons to devote) re-create an edge bevel. The EdgePro (Pro) is a great choice if you have the scissor attachment but the Apex won't help unless you can find a way to adapt some sort of method/tool to allow you to use the Apex to sharpen scissors.
Bench stones can be used by laying the blade across the stone's face at a 45 deg angle and sharpening as you would expect. The reson a 45 deg angle is used is to somewhat stabilize the narrow face of the scissor's edge by creating a greater contact surface area from the scissor blade to stone's face.
Believe it or not, and I wouldn't have believed it myself, the 1"x30" belt sander you have is a great tool for sharpening the standard household scissor/paper scissor. I use a 120-220x belt with the scissor edge facing into the direction of rotation. Yes, that's right, I said into the direction of rotation. Sounds dangerous doesn't it? I know, but it's not and it's the way many pro sharpeners do it. You can make a guide plate that you can run the scissor blade across to hold the angle or just free hand and hope for the best. After a few practice scissors this will become very easy to do. I used to pull out the EdgePro for all scissors and then I finally tried the belt sander and I was sold. It does just as good and it does it at lightning speed.
For larger scissors (shears) like fabric and upholstery shears I use the Tormek to sharpen them. It's much slower than the belt sander but it's very controllable and provides good results. It's best to use something that you can control the angle on when you're doing expensive shears.
Probably the best tool for sharpening scissors/shears is the Twice As Sharp (TAS). It's made to just do this - nothing else. I'd have to say that almost every pro sharpener has at least one TAS that they regularly use.
A few tips on sharpening (non hair) scissors/shears that will be especially helpful if you're sharpenng for money:
1. If you can, check the shears/scissors out before accepting them for work.
A lot are crappy and aren't worth messing with. Also, even better ones, can be bent which won't allow for the tips to touch. I had a pair of 12" blade fabric shears that I had to bend a bow into both blades to make it cut. Cheap Wal-Mart scissors (household scissors) will be flat and should remain flat. Don't try to create a bow with this type. You'll see what I mean quick enough.
2. Don't take them apart unless you have to.
Hair shears (not barbering scissors) have to come apart to work the inside but all others don't need to. It's best to leave well enough alone if you can - trust me. This also applies to tension - if it's close enough then let it go. You mess around with the wrong screw/bolt and you'll be buying someone a new pair of scissors. That sucks - trust me again.
3. Angles
It's almost always best to use the same angle that came from the factory. If the scissors have been sharpened a lot then it's likely that you'll have to select an angle to re-sharpen them to. The angle that you select should be suited for the task to which the scissors perform. You will have to use you're best judgement on this issue.
Here's a chart that shows some common angles for some common scissors.
Also note that many scissors have different angles on each blade. Don't try to re-engineer the scissors, just sharpen them at the angle they came with.
4. Don't polish the edge.
One of the worst things you can do is to create too smooth of an edge. It's best to consider what material is being cut with the scissors and match the degree of finish to the job they will do, or, play it safe and sharpen no finer than 220x grit (max). The reason for this is that if the blades are too polished they will push the material right out of the blades rather than grab and cut.
5. To set the tension, tighten the screw (or nut/bolt) just tight enough to be able to cut the material that is being expected to be cut.
Go tighter for thicker material and looser for thinner material like paper. Lube the pivot before adjusting as this affects the feel and sometimes the action.
6. If you use a water based sharpening system, such as the Tormek or EdgePro, to sharpen carbon bladed shears then be sure to dry the blades off real good and oil each pair before moving onto the next. This includes the edges too. If you forget to oil them and leave a little water on the blades, or in the pivot, you'll be making rust before you finish the next pair.
7. De-Burring
I used to be a big believer in trying to de-burr through using stones on the inside and all that crap but I've changed my opinion on that in the last year.
The absolute best way to de-burr a (non-hair) shear/scissor is to run the blade through a soft wooden block and then crunch the rest off while closing them on a paper towel - not each other. I use paper shop towels in place of regular paper towels but they should work fine too. This will take off any remaining burr and allow a test cut at the same time.
8. Corrugation (Serration)
Some scissors have one blade that is corrugated. If so, you should remove the old corrugations and apply fresh new ones. *Note - If you corrugate - do only one of the blades. The opposing blade can be polished to any degree of finish desired. Some folks will really polish up the non-corrugated blade.
9. If the tips don't meet after sharpening, and this is very common, then you should remove a small amount of material from the stop (usually found on thumb blade). Remove just enough to allow the tips to contact but not so much that they will cross over each other too much and overlap. You do that and you're screwed.
I think that's about it. The above is just the basics but should get you through the sharpening of most scissors/shears.
Happy sharpening....
--Dave--
Sharpening scissors is easy. Just like knives you either touch up the edge or re-create an edge bevel. For those of us getting paid to sharpen the latter is the only choice.
A Sharpmaker will do great touch-ups on scissors but it won't (unless you have many moons to devote) re-create an edge bevel. The EdgePro (Pro) is a great choice if you have the scissor attachment but the Apex won't help unless you can find a way to adapt some sort of method/tool to allow you to use the Apex to sharpen scissors.
Bench stones can be used by laying the blade across the stone's face at a 45 deg angle and sharpening as you would expect. The reson a 45 deg angle is used is to somewhat stabilize the narrow face of the scissor's edge by creating a greater contact surface area from the scissor blade to stone's face.
Believe it or not, and I wouldn't have believed it myself, the 1"x30" belt sander you have is a great tool for sharpening the standard household scissor/paper scissor. I use a 120-220x belt with the scissor edge facing into the direction of rotation. Yes, that's right, I said into the direction of rotation. Sounds dangerous doesn't it? I know, but it's not and it's the way many pro sharpeners do it. You can make a guide plate that you can run the scissor blade across to hold the angle or just free hand and hope for the best. After a few practice scissors this will become very easy to do. I used to pull out the EdgePro for all scissors and then I finally tried the belt sander and I was sold. It does just as good and it does it at lightning speed.
For larger scissors (shears) like fabric and upholstery shears I use the Tormek to sharpen them. It's much slower than the belt sander but it's very controllable and provides good results. It's best to use something that you can control the angle on when you're doing expensive shears.
Probably the best tool for sharpening scissors/shears is the Twice As Sharp (TAS). It's made to just do this - nothing else. I'd have to say that almost every pro sharpener has at least one TAS that they regularly use.
A few tips on sharpening (non hair) scissors/shears that will be especially helpful if you're sharpenng for money:
1. If you can, check the shears/scissors out before accepting them for work.
A lot are crappy and aren't worth messing with. Also, even better ones, can be bent which won't allow for the tips to touch. I had a pair of 12" blade fabric shears that I had to bend a bow into both blades to make it cut. Cheap Wal-Mart scissors (household scissors) will be flat and should remain flat. Don't try to create a bow with this type. You'll see what I mean quick enough.
2. Don't take them apart unless you have to.
Hair shears (not barbering scissors) have to come apart to work the inside but all others don't need to. It's best to leave well enough alone if you can - trust me. This also applies to tension - if it's close enough then let it go. You mess around with the wrong screw/bolt and you'll be buying someone a new pair of scissors. That sucks - trust me again.
3. Angles
It's almost always best to use the same angle that came from the factory. If the scissors have been sharpened a lot then it's likely that you'll have to select an angle to re-sharpen them to. The angle that you select should be suited for the task to which the scissors perform. You will have to use you're best judgement on this issue.
Here's a chart that shows some common angles for some common scissors.
Also note that many scissors have different angles on each blade. Don't try to re-engineer the scissors, just sharpen them at the angle they came with.
4. Don't polish the edge.
One of the worst things you can do is to create too smooth of an edge. It's best to consider what material is being cut with the scissors and match the degree of finish to the job they will do, or, play it safe and sharpen no finer than 220x grit (max). The reason for this is that if the blades are too polished they will push the material right out of the blades rather than grab and cut.
5. To set the tension, tighten the screw (or nut/bolt) just tight enough to be able to cut the material that is being expected to be cut.
Go tighter for thicker material and looser for thinner material like paper. Lube the pivot before adjusting as this affects the feel and sometimes the action.
6. If you use a water based sharpening system, such as the Tormek or EdgePro, to sharpen carbon bladed shears then be sure to dry the blades off real good and oil each pair before moving onto the next. This includes the edges too. If you forget to oil them and leave a little water on the blades, or in the pivot, you'll be making rust before you finish the next pair.
7. De-Burring
I used to be a big believer in trying to de-burr through using stones on the inside and all that crap but I've changed my opinion on that in the last year.
The absolute best way to de-burr a (non-hair) shear/scissor is to run the blade through a soft wooden block and then crunch the rest off while closing them on a paper towel - not each other. I use paper shop towels in place of regular paper towels but they should work fine too. This will take off any remaining burr and allow a test cut at the same time.
8. Corrugation (Serration)
Some scissors have one blade that is corrugated. If so, you should remove the old corrugations and apply fresh new ones. *Note - If you corrugate - do only one of the blades. The opposing blade can be polished to any degree of finish desired. Some folks will really polish up the non-corrugated blade.
9. If the tips don't meet after sharpening, and this is very common, then you should remove a small amount of material from the stop (usually found on thumb blade). Remove just enough to allow the tips to contact but not so much that they will cross over each other too much and overlap. You do that and you're screwed.
I think that's about it. The above is just the basics but should get you through the sharpening of most scissors/shears.
Happy sharpening....
--Dave--
Cliff Stamp
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D_R_Sharpening said:
Used as is shown on the video, it tends to micro-bevel all the sissors I have used it on as it is more obtuse. The medium rods can do this fairly quickly, but on really damaged ones I just use a coarse benchstone and finish with the sharpmaker, similar to working with a knife.
This is often recommended for knives as well, I don't see the reasoning behind it at all. If the edge has a heavy side bias in the form of a weakened burr and you attempt to remove it by a force 90 degrees to the edge this will just smash the weakened metal into the edge itself, sissor or knife, I can't see how this is the best method. Are you getting better cutting ability / edge retention with that over actually grinding it off?
-Cliff
Thanks for your time/info Dave. Great stuff as usual and I agree with DGG; I feel like I should be reaching for my wallet after getting such a stellar tutorial. If you'll indulge me one more time. Whats the deal with the pivot adjustment: "You mess around with the wrong screw/bolt and you'll be buying someone a new pair of scissors. That sucks - trust me again." thanx again!
D_R_Sharpening
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Cliff,
I used to remove the burr by folding from inside to outside to inside and so on thorugh using both leather hones and polishing (water) stones. Then I tried (one day) to rip the burr off using a wood block and it made no difference at all. I could only attribute this to the fact that the wodd is pulling the burr off rather than smashing it down.
I then messed around with buffers and paper wheels and even tried the old "crunching 'em together" method but these didn't work as well as the wood block or hones so I went back to the wood and then eventually started following that with a paper towel crunch. I saw the edge remain in perfect condition and perform just as expected. I know it sounds butcher-esque but it really does work good. Trust me, I'd hear all about it if it didn't.
bassjoo,
Many, many, many scissors/shears come to a pro sharpener in less than perfect condition. A lot of people expect the shear to not only be sharpened but also de-rusted as well. While I have no problem removing the rust I have learned to leave the screws/bolts from these type of scissors alone. If the blades are all rusty you can count on the screw being rusty too. If you snap off a screw then you have to drill and tap it out and hope you have a suitable replacement, which isn't always the case as there's some really strange screws out there or you end up buying the customer a replacement pair os scissors. I feel that I'd rather turn the work down and/or loose the cost of sharpening than I would to loose my time trying to repair the scissor and/or the cost of having to purchase a new pair. If you start doing scissors you'll quickly see what I mean.
--Dave--
I used to remove the burr by folding from inside to outside to inside and so on thorugh using both leather hones and polishing (water) stones. Then I tried (one day) to rip the burr off using a wood block and it made no difference at all. I could only attribute this to the fact that the wodd is pulling the burr off rather than smashing it down.
I then messed around with buffers and paper wheels and even tried the old "crunching 'em together" method but these didn't work as well as the wood block or hones so I went back to the wood and then eventually started following that with a paper towel crunch. I saw the edge remain in perfect condition and perform just as expected. I know it sounds butcher-esque but it really does work good. Trust me, I'd hear all about it if it didn't.
bassjoo,
Many, many, many scissors/shears come to a pro sharpener in less than perfect condition. A lot of people expect the shear to not only be sharpened but also de-rusted as well. While I have no problem removing the rust I have learned to leave the screws/bolts from these type of scissors alone. If the blades are all rusty you can count on the screw being rusty too. If you snap off a screw then you have to drill and tap it out and hope you have a suitable replacement, which isn't always the case as there's some really strange screws out there or you end up buying the customer a replacement pair os scissors. I feel that I'd rather turn the work down and/or loose the cost of sharpening than I would to loose my time trying to repair the scissor and/or the cost of having to purchase a new pair. If you start doing scissors you'll quickly see what I mean.
--Dave--
Cliff Stamp
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D_R_Sharpening said:
By eye or under magnification? How sharp are the edges of the sissors, can they push cut newsprint for example? Do you remove burrs on knives in the same way? A wooden block can't grind off a burr, it can only break it off.
-Cliff
D_R_Sharpening
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Hi Cliff,
To be honest I've never tested a pair of (non hair) scissors/shears on anything other than paper, paper towel, felt, or different miscellaneous fabrics. I have looked at the edges under magnification (10x loupe & 4 diopeter bench light) and things don't look the same between an edge that has had it's burr removed through hones vs. the 'ole wooden block. The hones leave a nice polished fine edge whereas the wooden block just leaves it fine. The performance is where the difference can't be seen or felt. I doubt it's the same but the customer knows not the difference.
For knives, I do not use a wooden block to remove a burr unless we're talking about going to the extremes with a fine peice of Japanese cutlery. In that case I would use the wooden block to remove the burr between stones (going from one grit to the next) but the final edge (and burr removal) is always done with either a leather bench hone, leather belt, or leather wheel.
--Dave--
To be honest I've never tested a pair of (non hair) scissors/shears on anything other than paper, paper towel, felt, or different miscellaneous fabrics. I have looked at the edges under magnification (10x loupe & 4 diopeter bench light) and things don't look the same between an edge that has had it's burr removed through hones vs. the 'ole wooden block. The hones leave a nice polished fine edge whereas the wooden block just leaves it fine. The performance is where the difference can't be seen or felt. I doubt it's the same but the customer knows not the difference.
For knives, I do not use a wooden block to remove a burr unless we're talking about going to the extremes with a fine peice of Japanese cutlery. In that case I would use the wooden block to remove the burr between stones (going from one grit to the next) but the final edge (and burr removal) is always done with either a leather bench hone, leather belt, or leather wheel.
--Dave--
Cliff Stamp
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I have tried off and on to get feedback from idividuals I sharpen blades forbut the problem is that most people use knife to such an extend that the edge retention doesn't matter because they run knives so blunt it is irrelevant anyway.
On average for example when people bring you knives to sharpen can they still slice newsprint? Probably not, however by the time knives start to fail to do this they are down to about 5-10% of optimal sharpness, and by the time they can not cut paper at all they have just a few pecent of optimal sharpness.
The biggest thing I have noticed feedback wise is initial sharpness, but because edge retention is nonlinear and people in general have really low standards it is hard to get feedback there. I sharpen sissors for a seamstress on occasion, it would be interesting to do the block vs stone burr removal and see which one, if either, got brought back earlier consistently.
Reprofiling makes a major different on knives, I have never tried it on sissors but sharpen them rarely.
-Cliff
On average for example when people bring you knives to sharpen can they still slice newsprint? Probably not, however by the time knives start to fail to do this they are down to about 5-10% of optimal sharpness, and by the time they can not cut paper at all they have just a few pecent of optimal sharpness.
The biggest thing I have noticed feedback wise is initial sharpness, but because edge retention is nonlinear and people in general have really low standards it is hard to get feedback there. I sharpen sissors for a seamstress on occasion, it would be interesting to do the block vs stone burr removal and see which one, if either, got brought back earlier consistently.
Reprofiling makes a major different on knives, I have never tried it on sissors but sharpen them rarely.
-Cliff
Cobbled together a simple jig to set/hold the angle on the belt sander and have been satisfied with the results. I'm wondering if there is any point to going finer than 220 grit on scissors? They seem cut well but don't push cut (like gift-wrap paper) very smoothly. Would a micro bevel at a slightly larger angle on a finer grit stone improve the push cut performance or is it a bad idea to mess with the original angle? Cliff, how do you cut the burr off on a stone without putting a slight bevel on the flat side of the blade (or does that even matter?) Thanks all
D_R_Sharpening
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You can either use a finer belt like a worn 600x (if you have it) or a 1000x equivalent and rehone at the same angle to get the results you're looking for. Another more simple alternative is to use a fine (white) ceramic rod (maybe even a Sharpmaker rod??) and just do a couple of passes on the very edge (barely a micro-bevel). She'll slip right through wrapping paper, trust me.
--Dave--
--Dave--
Cliff Stamp
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basjoo said:
Given how sissors work, I think a dual grind might be of interest, similar to how Joe origionally reworked the axis.
In general, they are just blades, I doubt they are optomized any more than knives are. I have never reprofiled them extensively, but in general since they usually cut really thin media, sharpness is more critical than edge angle.
-Cliff
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I don't know much about professional meat cutter's, but I think if you lent them a knife in the general shape of the one they use, they could give you a good evaluation of it. They have to resharpen their knives every five chickens or something like that.
Cliff Stamp
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Professinals can, generally you need a demanding person, someone who wants a really sharp knife. You have to also at times note that there may be a difference between what you give them any what they have used. For example I have given very hard and thin edged knives to fisherman and watch them rake them down hard over coarse butchers steels out of habit (it works well on soft blades) and it mangles the edge. They then don't even perform as well as the cheap low end knives.
Tradespeople in general and those who do physical labor are a great resource for tool evaulation. I give knives to my brother all the time (carpenter) and not only does this serve to judge the cutting ability, edge retention and very heavily durability, he also uses it for things that I don't, or do very rarely. The same goes in general for users of different skill levels, it is informative to have a novice evaluate a knife as it is a skilled user.
-Cliff
Tradespeople in general and those who do physical labor are a great resource for tool evaulation. I give knives to my brother all the time (carpenter) and not only does this serve to judge the cutting ability, edge retention and very heavily durability, he also uses it for things that I don't, or do very rarely. The same goes in general for users of different skill levels, it is informative to have a novice evaluate a knife as it is a skilled user.
-Cliff
Hi there,
I’ve got a question relating to the sharpening of shears and fabric scissors.
I want to purchases a professional machine for this job, but I’m unsure what system is better for scissors…. The Wolff Twice as Sharp dry stone system or something like the Tormek wet stone system??
What system is better for fabric scissors and what are the pros/cons of each???
Appreciate any comments
Thanks
I’ve got a question relating to the sharpening of shears and fabric scissors.
I want to purchases a professional machine for this job, but I’m unsure what system is better for scissors…. The Wolff Twice as Sharp dry stone system or something like the Tormek wet stone system??
What system is better for fabric scissors and what are the pros/cons of each???
Appreciate any comments
Thanks
If you can find an old Foley Belsaw 327 with all the parts, it’ll get your scissors pretty sharp fairly quickly.
IMHO, carbon steel scissors are better than stainless ones at most price points. Although the Tormek is a good machine, it will get the pivot joint wet. If you don’t have a good way to dry it quickly, it will rust up and impair the action. Unless I’m disassembling the scissors already (which I rarely do), I sharpen scissors dry.
This thread is over 15 yrs old. Next time you might want to start a new one.
Parker
IMHO, carbon steel scissors are better than stainless ones at most price points. Although the Tormek is a good machine, it will get the pivot joint wet. If you don’t have a good way to dry it quickly, it will rust up and impair the action. Unless I’m disassembling the scissors already (which I rarely do), I sharpen scissors dry.
This thread is over 15 yrs old. Next time you might want to start a new one.
Parker
If you genuinely want professional you want one of these
Or
wolffindustries.com
I own the katoku flat hone and several other flat hones with convexing arm and without. I really like the katoku. It’s a top tier machine.
I sharpen grooming and barber shears semi-professionally (kind of a side hobby job).
I also have a WE 130 and Tormek T-8. I have considered fitting the T-8 with a twice as sharp arm and convexing system but honestly neither are the way to go if you want “professional” or semi professional.
I will say this though… if you don’t want to layout the that much money you could build your own powered 6” flat hone ($300-500) and free hand sharpen on it. I built a couple when I started and they are super adequate. I can do everything I need on both of my backup machines. I just like the fit finish of the professional machine.I would still choose my home built 6” flat hone over WE, tormek or twice as sharp. The twice as sharp with convexing clamp might get a second look but probably not…
Watch a few videos on ytube and those convexing machine and you’ll get the idea.
Or
Hira-To® Flat Hone Scissors Sharpener with Hook and Loop Discs
OverviewWhen you want to provide the absolute best edge possible on high end convex shears, look no further than the Wolff Industries Hira-To® Scissors Sharpening System. The Hira-To® is designed to sharpen and convex beauty, barber, and grooming scissors. It is easier, faster, and more precise...
wolffindustries.com
I own the katoku flat hone and several other flat hones with convexing arm and without. I really like the katoku. It’s a top tier machine.
I sharpen grooming and barber shears semi-professionally (kind of a side hobby job).
I also have a WE 130 and Tormek T-8. I have considered fitting the T-8 with a twice as sharp arm and convexing system but honestly neither are the way to go if you want “professional” or semi professional.
I will say this though… if you don’t want to layout the that much money you could build your own powered 6” flat hone ($300-500) and free hand sharpen on it. I built a couple when I started and they are super adequate. I can do everything I need on both of my backup machines. I just like the fit finish of the professional machine.I would still choose my home built 6” flat hone over WE, tormek or twice as sharp. The twice as sharp with convexing clamp might get a second look but probably not…
Watch a few videos on ytube and those convexing machine and you’ll get the idea.