Sencut Sachse vs Kizer Original XL vs Kizer T1??

[Truesome]

Pretty similar knives, on paper. Chinese, button lock, comparable steel, micarta, similar sizes…

T8 on the Sencut is a bonus. Flipper tab vs no flipper tab. Kizer has no liner vs steel. No idea which has the better action or button lock.

Kizer is almost double the price of the Sencut, but both are sub-$100.

Which do people prefer, and why?

 

[Hackenslash]

I’ve carried a regular Original for a few months now. I have no experience with the Sencut. The Kizer Original has been rock solid, good action and good ergonomics.

I’ll take the Kizer 154CM over the Sencut 9Cr everyday, and steel liners aren’t needed in an EDC knife this size.

I’ll take an Original over a Sachse. The advantages support the price point…honestly, the Altus might be a better knife than either.

 

[Truesome]

I’ve carried a regular Original for a few months now. I have no experience with the Sencut. The Kizer Original has been rock solid, good action and good ergonomics.

I’ll take the Kizer 154CM over the Sencut 9Cr everyday, and steel liners aren’t needed in an EDC knife this size.

I’ll take an Original over a Sachse. The advantages support the price point…honestly, the Altus might be a better knife than either.

I notice the Civivi/Sencut thumb studs are placed more forward than Kizer (in general). Why do you prefer the Altus?

 

[Truesome]

I’ve carried a regular Original for a few months now. I have no experience with the Sencut. The Kizer Original has been rock solid, good action and good ergonomics.

I’ll take the Kizer 154CM over the Sencut 9Cr everyday, and steel liners aren’t needed in an EDC knife this size.

I’ll take an Original over a Sachse. The advantages support the price point…honestly, the Altus might be a better knife than either.

Ps, I keep reading great things about the Civivi/Sencut 9Cr heat treat and performance reviews. What makes the Kizer 154CM significantly better? Thank you!!

 

[Chronovore]

Ps, I keep reading great things about the Civivi/Sencut 9Cr heat treat and performance reviews. What makes the Kizer 154CM significantly better? Thank you!!

154CM has a little more carbon but that isn't the only issue here. It definitely has a better reputation than 9Cr18Mov but some of that has to do with the knives that have used these steels over the years. Essentially, 154CM with a decent heat treatment will hold a significantly better edge than 9Cr18Mov with an iffy heat treatment. In this case, we've got 9Cr18Mov with about the best heat treatment you'll find on it. So the question comes down to how well Kizer runs their 154CM.

While I've recently acquired a few Kizers in 154CM, I'm a relatively light user and they've been splashed into an already crowded EDC rotation. So I can't say how well they run it. I also haven't seen any testing on it. From anecdotal reports among the greater EDC community, people seem to like it on edge retention. On corrosion resistance, 154CM is stainless enough for most users but this category is a clear win for 9Cr18Mov.

Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Crucible 154CM, GB 9Cr18MoV Version 4.36

This is a tough choice and honestly, I wouldn't make it based on steel. In other areas, I generally prefer the feel of Kizer's button locks but the Sencut costs a lot less. The overall quality of the Kizer might be slightly better. (This Kizer is on par with the Civivi stuff whereas Sencut is more budget-focused. That's not bad but for instance, Sencut saves a bit by using free-spinning pivots. The fit and finish is still generally quite good, and materials like Micarta provide enough traction that I've had zero issues with mine.) At the end of the day, both of these should be decent EDC knives. So go with the more appealing design and give it a try.

 

[Truesome]

154CM has a little more carbon but that isn't the only issue here. It definitely has a better reputation than 9Cr18Mov but some of that has to do with the knives that have used these steels over the years. Essentially, 154CM with a decent heat treatment will hold a significantly better edge than 9Cr18Mov with an iffy heat treatment. In this case, we've got 9Cr18Mov with about the best heat treatment you'll find on it. So the question comes down to how well Kizer runs their 154CM.

While I've recently acquired a few Kizers in 154CM, I'm a relatively light user and they've been splashed into an already crowded EDC rotation. So I can't say how well they run it. I also haven't seen any testing on it. From anecdotal reports among the greater EDC community, people seem to like it on edge retention. On corrosion resistance, 154CM is stainless enough for most users but this category is a clear win for 9Cr18Mov.

Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Crucible 154CM, GB 9Cr18MoV Version 4.36

This is a tough choice and honestly, I wouldn't make it based on steel. In other areas, I generally prefer the feel of Kizer's button locks but the Sencut costs a lot less. The overall quality of the Kizer might be slightly better. (This Kizer is on par with the Civivi stuff whereas Sencut is more budget-focused. That's not bad but for instance, Sencut saves a bit by using free-spinning pivots. The fit and finish is still generally quite good, and materials like Micarta provide enough traction that I've had zero issues with mine.) At the end of the day, both of these should be decent EDC knives. So go with the more appealing design and give it a try.

Everything I’ve read about WE/Civivi/Sencut 9Cr edge retention is that in hangs in there with the better examples of D2 out there—with the added benefits of better toughness and corrosion resistance. Is there really a meaningful difference between that and 154CM?

If find it interesting the thumb studs are in pretty different locations given such similar overall knives. I wonder which one deploys better.

 

[littleknife]

Unless there are many negative reports, most user feedbacks are highly subjective, since they usually do not include standardized testing. What could be the best knife for one, could be a bad one for another.
Besides the steel and heat treatment you should also consider the blade and handle profiles.
I personally would choose the Kizer, because I think the straighter handle provides for a larger variety of grip positions. Also, the Sencut is much pointier, which could be an advantage if you plan to pierce things a lot, but this specific blade shape is not optimal of you are going to use it mostly to slice things. Neither knife is optimal for self defence/ tactical use.
My personal preference would be the Kizer, but as I said, this is due to highly subjective reasons.

 

[Truesome]

Unless there are many negative reports, most user feedbacks are highly subjective, since they usually do not include standardized testing. What could be the best knife for one, could be a bad one for another.
Besides the steel and heat treatment you should also consider the blade and handle profiles.
I personally would choose the Kizer, because I think the straighter handle provides for a larger variety of grip positions. Also, the Sencut is much pointier, which could be an advantage if you plan to pierce things a lot, but this specific blade shape is not optimal of you are going to use it mostly to slice things. Neither knife is optimal for self defence/ tactical use.
My personal preference would be the Kizer, but as I said, this is due to highly subjective reasons.

Great thoughts, thanks.

I don't know if it's rational, but I have come to develop a bias against liner-less folders. Both for the weight ratio and stiffness. Just so light for its size. Maybe that's insane.

I think the blades and handles are probably both good enough for my purposes.

I like the liner, hardware, and price on the SC. I like what I've seen from Kizer in the past and the lack of the unnecessary fipper tab on that one.

Decisions, decisions

 

[Chronovore]

Unless there are many negative reports, most user feedbacks are highly subjective, since they usually do not include standardized testing. What could be the best knife for one, could be a bad one for another.
Besides the steel and heat treatment you should also consider the blade and handle profiles.
I personally would choose the Kizer, because I think the straighter handle provides for a larger variety of grip positions. Also, the Sencut is much pointier, which could be an advantage if you plan to pierce things a lot, but this specific blade shape is not optimal of you are going to use it mostly to slice things. Neither knife is optimal for self defence/ tactical use.
My personal preference would be the Kizer, but as I said, this is due to highly subjective reasons.

While there are general principles, ergonomics can be subjective. Personally, the Kizer Original does not fit my hand well. It has to do with the spacing of the finger groove in relation to the butt of the handle. While those corners are nicely rounded, the finger groove forces them into a weird spot for my hand. Among their recent thumb-stud knives, the larger Begleiter 2 is a very good fit for me.

Straighter can be good but not always. Sometimes, a little curve goes a long way in terms of fit. Both of these are reasons why I like the Sencut Neches so much. The ergonomics are relatively neutral with a slight forward curve. The edges are nicely rounded. For a smaller knife, it feels wonderful in my hand. If I recall correctly though, the OP tried it and it wasn't a good fit for him.

As far as tactical or self-defense use, no folder is particularly good in those roles but that's another discussion entirely.

 

[littleknife]

Yes, Chronovore, I agree.
The Sencut Naches looks so much better for me too.More neutral handle and blade shape.
Also, I too would pick the Kizer Begleiter 2 (or any other Begleiter model) over the Original XL.

 

[Chronovore]

Yes, Chronovore, I agree.
The Sencut Naches looks so much better for me too.More neutral handle and blade shape.
Also, I too would pick the Kizer Begleiter 2 (or any other Begleiter model) over the Original XL.

BTW, I did round the scale edges a little on my Begleiter 2. It was a good and relatively quick upgrade.

 

[Truesome]

I’ve carried a regular Original for a few months now. I have no experience with the Sencut. The Kizer Original has been rock solid, good action and good ergonomics.

I’ll take the Kizer 154CM over the Sencut 9Cr everyday, and steel liners aren’t needed in an EDC knife this size.

I’ll take an Original over a Sachse. The advantages support the price point…honestly, the Altus might be a better knife than either.

Altus wasn’t really on my radar, thanks. Reminds me a little of the Pintail. Or Kizer Gemini. Pretty beefy looking handle for a little knife too.

CJRP Pyrite is a compelling design, significantly cheaper. Button lock without flipper tab (yay). Reviews on Artisan’s proprietary steel are somewhat lackluster, to say the least. Cool looking knife though.

 

[Chronovore]

Altus wasn’t really on my radar, thanks. Reminds me a little of the Pintail. Or Kizer Gemini. Pretty beefy looking handle for a little knife too.

CJRP Pyrite is a compelling design, significantly cheaper. Button lock without flipper tab (yay). Reviews on Artisan’s proprietary steel are somewhat lackluster, to say the least. Cool looking knife though.

I've experienced horrible QC issues with Artisan/CJRB. I have more than a 50% lemon rate from them, including my Pyrite. Because it was a KnifeCenter exclusive and diagnosed the problem after disassembly, I can't just return it. So I have to deal with Artisan/CJRB to handle it. I'm on my third email with no response. (I also called but their voicemail is full.)

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

Everything I’ve read about WE/Civivi/Sencut 9Cr edge retention is that in hangs in there with the better examples of D2 out there—with the added benefits of better toughness and corrosion resistance. Is there really a meaningful difference between that and 154CM?

I agree with everything in Chronovore's first post and so on, personally would go with Kizer also, better reputation, still sub $100.
Having used for work a lot of the three steels - 154cm, D2 and 9Cr18Mov, I would always go with the D2 first, 154cm second and my last choice will be the 9Cr18 which doesn't mean it's a bad steel. With this said, in my experience 9Cr cannot compare to the edge retention of even relatively poorly done D2. Benchmade's 154cm and Ontario's D2 are benchmarks for me for those steels,
for EDC working blade, not mentioning Dozier's because I don't have one yet. Edge retention and toughness are absolutely no issue with D2, at least in my case, regardless manufacturer.

 

[Chronovore]

... second and my last choice will be the 9Cr18 which doesn't mean it's a bad steel. With this said, in my experience 9Cr cannot compare to the edge retention of even relatively poorly done D2.

Forgive me if this already came up here, but from which company did you use 9Cr18Mov and how many times did you sharpen it? Remember that factory edges are routinely bad from most companies and some can be a lot worse than others. You won't get a true indication of how good a steel is until you've gotten past the heat-related effects from factory grinding.

Chinese D2 can offer decent edge retention and a good example can go a long way. The problems with Chinese D2 are (1) variance in performance from knife to knife and (2) never coming close to expectations or ratings based on American or other knives in D2.

I'm still a newbie on 154CM but people seem to like it.

 

[Truesome]

I've experienced horrible QC issues with Artisan/CJRB. I have more than a 50% lemon rate from them… their voicemail is full.

Not a good sign…

I have read that they’re inconsistent and that the key is finding a “good one.” Not sure how easy that is through mail order though.

Can I ask, specifically, what is the issue with your Pyrite?

 

[Chronovore]

Not a good sign…

I have read that they’re inconsistent and that the key is finding a “good one.” Not sure how easy that is through mail order though.

Can I ask, specifically, what is the issue with your Pyrite?

I snapped these quickly when I had it apart so forgive the image quality. Notice that there are two sets of divots along the bearing races that just happen to be bearing-space apart. I'm not sure how it happened but I'm guessing they cranked the pivot down hard enough to press the ceramic bearings into both blade and liner, twice. Now they act like speed-bumps for the bearings.

 

[Truesome]

I snapped these quickly when I had it apart so forgive the image quality. Notice that there are two sets of divots along the bearing races that just happen to be bearing-space apart. I'm not sure how it happened but I'm guessing they cranked the pivot down hard enough to press the ceramic bearings into both blade and liner, twice. Now they act like speed-bumps for the bearings.

Bummer. Makes for crunchy action, I suspect.

Can I ask, how’s your experience with steel performance, I’ve read all the lackluster reviews on it here and am wondering if maybe it’s at least as good performing as Civivi 9Cr. Thanks!

 

[Chronovore]

Bummer. Makes for crunchy action, I suspect.

Can I ask, how’s your experience with steel performance, I’ve read all the lackluster reviews on it here and am wondering if maybe it’s at least as good performing as Civivi 9Cr. Thanks!

It does.

The steel performance isn't terrible but no, it is not as good as Civivi/Sencut 9Cr. It is closer to garden variety 9Cr18Mov. That's not necessarily bad in isolation. Average 9Cr18Mov is a solid step up from average or even the best 8Cr13Mov I've had, and lots of companies are still using 8Cr13Mov in $50 knives. The problems come with feeling let down by a hyped PM budget steel that isn't much better than the regular stuff and isn't better than the regular stuff with a good heat treatment in similarly priced or more affordable knives.

Unfortunately, factoring that in with the QC and customer service issues; how could I recommend them?

 

[Truesome]

It does.

The steel performance isn't terrible but no, it is not as good as Civivi/Sencut 9Cr. It is closer to garden variety 9Cr18Mov. That's not necessarily bad in isolation. Average 9Cr18Mov is a solid step up from average or even the best 8Cr13Mov I've had, and lots of companies are still using 8Cr13Mov in $50 knives. The problems come with feeling let down by a hyped PM budget steel that isn't much better than the regular stuff and isn't better than the regular stuff with a good heat treatment in similarly priced or more affordable knives.

Unfortunately, factoring that in with the QC and customer service issues; how could I recommend them?

I completely see your point.

I do wonder if any changes in heat treatment, etc have been refined since first release a few years ago.

One of the less sponsored/bias YouTube reviewers recently posted this underneath his review of this knife:

"I really love AR-RPM9. It's one of my favorite steels. The first batches Artisan did weren't the greatest, but they have it dialed in now. Easy to sharpen, great stainless qualities, decent toughness, and edge retention that can compete or beat any other budget steel. Edge retention is higher than Civivi 9Cr, toughness is a bit less, stainlessness is about equal. From my experience." (Gideonsstuff)

Everydaycommentary (I like his blog) said this recently:

"It is basically 14C28N or a little better. I wouldn’t pay a premium for it but it is clearly the best budget steel out there."

I wonder if they really have "dialed it in now" (and how much these reviewers have really used and sharpened these knives. (I do know “Gideon” has sharpened his at least once and used as an EDC.)

Only one way to find out! ;-)