Serrations vs flesh & blood

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gris91

I can't figure out that trolling an American Forum
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I need to know definately before I turn my knife design into a real knife; WILL serrations (a fully serrated blade) be of value on a 100% tactical/fighter knife, if used solely for fighting purposes? I will not use it for anything else but a backup weapon...

The design so far is a fully serrated blade (on 1 side or 2/both, double-edged knife), same length as the M9 and equipped with a blood-groove.

Should I perhaps make one side fully serrated (from handle-onwards) and the other side just "conventional" cutting-edge ??

No matter how good/bad serrations are in practical use, how effective would they be on a fighter's edge? I assume they would cut through fiberous materials better and so forth, but of course I mean if used against another human being (or animal), even though I pray that won't happen, who knows, and I want to be prepared.
 
1> It's not a "blood groove", it's a fuller. Designed to lighten the blade weight and balance it out easier.

2> have a look at the old "fighting bowies". They're all PE. As are skinning knives, designed to cut flesh.

3> serrations WILL catch up in fiberous material. Yes the Spydie Civilian and Mat are designed as specifically SD, and are SE, but it's super thin at the edge. Haven't seen a custom get that thin yet as it sacrifices durability.

4> the Gunting, designed for SD in all conditions, is PE. BRAM had to be begged by the ELUs to put serrations in, as they don't offer anything extra with said knife.

5> I've only cut myself once with SE, and the PE is by far worse. Clean cuts have nothing to bond themselves closed.
 
No serrations on my fighting knives.

In tests on dummies with clothes on the serrations grabbed and slowed the draw across the material making for less deep cuts.

A sharp straight edge gets the job done.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by gris91
I need to know definately before I turn my knife design into a real knife; WILL serrations (a fully serrated blade) be of value on a 100% tactical/fighter knife, if used solely for fighting purposes? I will not use it for anything else but a backup weapon...
Click to expand...
Why do you need a knife? If your keyboard starts looking at you funny, just smash it with a hammer.
 
Hi Gris. It is just my opinion, but if the plain edge is scary sharp and the serrated edge is scary sharp, you won't find too much difference in the initial cut. That means that you will keep it that way and not cut anything with it.

A scary sharp serration is not likely to catch on anything nor is a scary sharp plain edge.

If there is an advantage to a serration, it will be in hitting something very hard with the edge (like a steel button). Only the tips of the teeth would be affected in the slash.

sal
 
I don't see any reason for serrations on a fighting knife. My recommendation for a great fighter is a Bowie with a 9 1/2" to 12" blade and a sharpened clip. If you want a great fighting Bowie, check out a custom Hell's Belle by Bill Bagwell. Not cheap, but in my opinion as good a fighter as you can get.

The only thing that I can see serrations doing is adding to the fear factor of the knife. Kind of like those useless saw teeth on the back of Rambo knives, they give the knives a mean look.
 
Originally posted by gris91
I need to know definately before I turn my knife design into a real knife; WILL serrations (a fully serrated blade) be of value on a 100% tactical/fighter knife, if used solely for fighting purposes? I will not use it for anything else but a backup weapon...

The design so far is a fully serrated blade (on 1 side or 2/both, double-edged knife), same length as the M9 and equipped with a blood-groove.

Should I perhaps make one side fully serrated (from handle-onwards) and the other side just "conventional" cutting-edge ??

No matter how good/bad serrations are in practical use, how effective would they be on a fighter's edge? I assume they would cut through fiberous materials better and so forth, but of course I mean if used against another human being (or animal), even though I pray that won't happen, who knows, and I want to be prepared.


in the real world
and speking form experience useing knives to kill stuff with
any kind of serrations suck!!
same goes for knifes w saws on them
SUCK BIG
harley
www.lonesomepineknives.com
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Frank
Why do you need a knife? If your keyboard starts looking at you funny, just smash it with a hammer.
Click to expand...

eheh.
i wonder how many people actually caught that
 
Since people other than Chiz are genuinely interested, I think the consensus has been that serrations are ill advised because they do tend to catch [you can't be sure to hit flesh rather than fibrous material etc.] Some knives do use serrations, but sometimes for trapping, not cutting, like the REKAT Pocket Hobbit. I don't have the credentials or experience in actual combat to give an authoritative opinion, but I used to favour serrations and have, over the years, been persuaded otherwise.
 
The pointy serrations can catch, but as Sal noted, if they are acute and sharp, very few materials can hold onto them and those kinds of materials will completely resist being cut by a plain edged blade. The curved serrations like Mission uses don't catch on materials and given very nasty cuts compared to plain edges in terms of damage done and healing time.

-Cliff
 
On a fighter I would not recomend serations. Reason being you will loose alot of penetration capability, due to the serations catching clothing materials. Also from test that my group has performed a utility sharp edge with a little bur, sharpened on a fine stone, is better for cutting through clothing into flesh. Also I know from test that the spear point blade will penetrate through knife proof vest. It will go through civilian clothing with no problem. Blood grooves as they are most commonly known are for show.

I hope this will help you.

Jim Burke, www.burkeknives.com
 
Chiz,

This is a hard question for me to answer.

If this knife was to be used against REAL agressors, I'd say that any good, strong knife would do, with or without serrations.

The problem here is how can we properly arm you for imaginary combat?

Well, I could write 'Sheffield' on a toilet paper roll, or just loan you my mom's spatula. You could draw squiggly lines on whatever implement and just say they are serrations.

With so many real soldiers within arm's length of solid enemies, your hazy grip on reality is particularly offensive.
 
The curved serrations like Mission uses don't catch on materials and given very nasty cuts compared to plain edges in terms of damage done and healing time.

how do u know this??
harley

how
 
Folks,

Don't buy into this. chz91 is a well known troll on the BFC political forum, and foists himself off as some kind of Swedish mercenary.

In truth, a 'black bag' guy would know exactly what knives do to human bodies, and he wouldn't need the input from us, basically a cross section of jackknife hobbyists.

To my knowledge, he has never stated that he even owns a knife, and I have never seen a picture of anything he does own. At least TTO was creative.
 
I used a Missions MPK-Ti serrated on all manner of materials and it was far smoother on the cut than other types of serrations, and are actually quite fluid because of the gentle curvature as opposed to the points used on many popular types, the worse I have seen in regards to catching were those used by SOG which bind horribly on ropes and fabrics and such.

Of course there are utility disadvantages to Missions pattern; it isn't as durable in regards to really abrasive contacts as the heavily pointed patterns which shield the inner scallops better, and it can't be used as a saw as well on hard materials like plastics, soft metals and woods.

The time to heal I have noted mainly on myself, any kind of tear does much more damage and takes far longer to heal than a clean cut. A smooth cut does less damage to the surrounding tissue so it will bleed less and heal faster. A serration pattern will do much more damage as there is a puncture and tearing action to the tissue around the cut causing a more open wound which bleeds less and it harder to stop and takes more work to heal.

There could be an arguement however for serrations limiting the depth of the cut, but in general people are really easy to cut, and layers of clothes don't do much at all to stop a sharp knife especially a serrated one, which is why all the cut resistant gloves specifically say that the protection against serration patterns is minimal. Most people using knives for any length of time can testify all too well to these issues because of accidental self-inflicted cuts it doesn't take much at all to cause major damage.

This isn't an argument for serration patterns on self-defense knives, in the scope of how effective the knife functions, plain edge or serrated would be fairly far down on the list and you can find really experienced individuals who prefer either. Chas Clements for example has spoken highly of the serrated spydercos for self-defence.

-Cliff
 
For thousands of years edged weapons were in constant use, in war and in peace. Everybody wanted any advantage they could get and they tried everything they could think of, including all kinds of serrated edges, and because they used edged weapons frequently they found out what didn't work and discarded it very quickly, including all kinds of serrated edges.

Nowadays edged weapons are so seldom used that hucksters can market anything and it will be bought -- by some people, by people who are only capable of learning from their own personal experience. You can sell American tantos, serrated edges, the wildest most impractical blade shapes you can dream up, and the suckers will trample each other to buy. They think anything that's obviously impractical for any other use must be good for fighting, and they outnumber people who are smart enough to learn from history or from contemporaries like Larry Harley (who has hunted and killed more feral pigs with a knife than even the heros of legend killed men with a sword) -- so the worst designs sell the fastest.

Edged weapons are not complicated. It doesn't take thousands of years of experimentation to discover which designs work the best. All the edged weapons that work were invented early in the Bronze Age and have been used ever since. Bowies, bolos, daggers, stilettos, korambits -- and throughout all those thousands of years serrated edges were used too -- on tools for special purposes, not on weapons. It wasn't that our ancestors never tried serrations -- they did try them, every kind you can think of, and they discovered what they're good for and they used them for that.
 
I see more has been posted while I was writing that, so I'll add one more point -- if you're trying to defend yourself and you inflict a wound on the attacker that will take a long time to heal -- that doesn't do you any good. He won't have time to heal during the fight anyway.
 
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