Shapton ceramic vs. DMT

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knifefreak765

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Mar 9, 2016
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A while back I had it in my heart that I am going to get DMT stones and nothing can change my mind, now I am wondering if I should get the shapton ceramic stones up to 8k grit, I am pretty sure they will polish a lot better than diamond stones, but I am wondering about how long they stay flat, but I could use both diamond and ceramic.

For a business I am going to be doing freehand sharpening with two options utilitarian edge, or hair whittling mirror perfection. So in a nutshell, Diamond vs Ceramic. GO!!!
 
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I'm assuming you mean the Shapton glass stones. According to our man Jason B, they cut really fast and polish like you'd expect a waterstone to do. DMT stones, by contrast, cut super fast, but leave a polish that is less refined than you would expect at their grit rating. This is because diamond particles are pointy, super hard, and fixed in place. So they cut deeper than other abrasives. You're not really going to get a mirror polish from DMT, even with the EEF. The Shapton Glass stones can definitely deliver a mirror polish at high enough grit ratings.

I've been very interested in the Shapton Glass stones for a while myself. Jason makes them seem like a perfect fit for me, because they are super hard and don't gouge like my other water stones; almost the best of both worlds. Honestly, the main thing stopping me is the lapping stone/plate required. I don't think they recommend lapping with anything other than their dedicated Shapton lapping plate and it's just crazy expensive ($350-ish). Maybe you could lap with an Atoma 400 or something, but even that adds another ~$100 to the overall cost. I guess it's really that overall cost figure that's keeping me away at the moment.

Brian.
 
bgentry said:
Honestly, the main thing stopping me is the lapping stone/plate required. I don't think they recommend lapping with anything other than their dedicated Shapton lapping plate and it's just crazy expensive ($350-ish). Maybe you could lap with an Atoma 400 or something, but even that adds another ~$100 to the overall cost. I guess it's really that overall cost figure that's keeping me away at the moment.

Brian.
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I lap my 500 grit Shapton Glass EP stone with some SiC powder that I bought from Edge Pro, and it worked fine.
 
Lapping the Shapton stones is easily done with an Atoma 140 or 400. I only have the Shapton plate because I got one on sale through a forum deal and I already have most everything else so why not? It works very well but I think an Atoma 400 could easily replace it.

I don't know of too many knives that would be suited to an 8k edge, I plan on getting an 8k Shapton glass in the future but it's uses are so few and far between its not real high on the priority list. I typically stop at 2k or 4k, the 4K glass polishes well so it's not often I see the need to go beyond that. 2k is where it's at though, follows the 500 nicely and produces a quality cutting edge.
 
I have both I have dmt Dia sharps from xc to eef . 99% of the time if I'm using stones I use the dmts, and finish off with a spyderco UF ceramic.
 
I have the 5000 grit waterstone (wine colored professional series.) I use DMT coarse, fine, EF, and then finish on the 5k. I don't go for mirror, but I suspect it would be hard to achieve with the DMT's prior because of the scratch pattern they leave. If you went all Shapton you would have a better chance based on what I have read.
 
knifefreak765 said:
I mean their ceramic stones, LOOK IT UP, they make ceramic stones
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That word, ceramic is misleading when it comes to waterstones. Most people think of ceramic as being so hard that steel won't affect it just by rubbing. Spyderco's line of "ceramic" sharpening stones are what most people think of with a description of "ceramic". They essentially do not wear, do not require flattening, and shouldn't ever need to be replaced.

Shapton calls the Glass Stone series "ceramic" also. From what I've been told, the Glass Stones feel a lot like a hard ceramic plate, but they wear (slowly) like a regular waterstone. Grit is released as you use them. So they dish (slowly) and require flattening. They will also need to be replaced eventually as they wear down.

I "looked it up" and found that some web sources are calling the Shapton Professional series "ceramic" too. I've never used one, so maybe my information isn't accurate. But from what I've seen and read, the Shapton Pro stones are just a sort of hard waterstone. They wear faster than Glass Stones and are softer. Again, from what I've read.

I'll bet Jason B has an opinion on this. I think he owns a bunch of Pros and Glass Stones. :)

Brian.
 
Maybe my post sounded confusing I own dmts , shapton glass and spyderco ceramic. Picked up the shapton 1k/4k set . They are good water stones and they do wear slow and cut fast.

For me though I prefer DMTS and the Spyderco ceramics. If I'm using stones.
 
I have used my DMT XXC plate (as well as my C and F on my finer grit Glasstones) as well as Atoma 140 to flatten my Glasstones without problems. I like the Glasstones as even on CPM M4 the finer stones polish out the edges very nicely, and they do so without dishing or gouging. Once you get up to S90V class steels the finer grits don't mirror out the bevel as nicely. For my S110V Para 2 I just put on a 500 grit Glasstone edge at 11 degrees per side, and followed with about 8 passes per side on my 16000 grit Glasstone at 15 degrees per side. The edge catches hair above the arm, pops hairs, and easily push cuts phone book paper well away from the point of hold (this is a true 90/90/90 push cut, straight down into the paper with the knife perpendicular to the paper in all planes, not using slicing or tilting the blade in any way to start the cut). I'm pretty happy with that sharpness as it has excellent slicing aggression along with decent push cutting performance, very similar to what you get from Tom Krein on his knives. I don't think I will need my DMT plates on S110V as I once feared, at least with coarse finishes like this. On my less Vanadium rich steels up to CPM M4 class, I really like the 2000 grit Glasstone finish as Jason does. It's a very nice compromise of push cutting and slicing aggression. If you take the time to put a 16000 grit edge on, it will be mirrored out perfectly and do some nice work turning hair into a fuzzstick, but I prefer more slicing aggression on my EDC knives so I don't go that fine too often. Its fun to do, but not worth the time to me on most steels aside from Super Blue.
 
As Brian touched on, Ceramic has many definitions.

Ceramics like Spyderco ceramic stones are kiln fired and sintered to form an extremely hard non-wearing abrasive stone.

Shapton uses ceramic abrasive in a binder to create a fast cutting and very hard waterstone that more easily sharpens higher alloy steels. They shed abrasive allowing new sharp abrasive to be constantly exposed, this is the advantage the Shaptons have over other ceramic stones.

The Pro and Glass lines both use a ceramic abrasive but the Glass stones use the highest quality ceramic. Truthfully, I like the Pro stones better but the Glass stones handle a wider range of steels so I tend to use them a bit more. The Glass stones polish better too, so for example, a 2k Glass stone to most will be a "polished" edge, 4k would be a mirror and 8k becomes an indistinguishable improvement that's only worth it on a select few blades... like straight razors.

They will handle 95% of sharpening but diamond plates and even other waterstones/oilstones/natural stones could be needed depending on the services you offer. Personally, I would be more concerned with coarse and medium stones than fine stones.
 
Jason, what is the relative wear rate and hardness of Glass Stone versus Pro? I.E. is the Glass Stone harder than the Pro. Does the GS wear more slowly than the Pro? Or are they the same in those two measures (wear rate and hardness)?

I suspect that the Pros are softer and wear faster. I base this on having read what you say about stones and that you tend to prefer softer waterstones and in particular you seem to like muddy stones (neither of these are muddy I know).

Brian.
 
Preferences change, or I should say, get rediscovered. I started with hard stones and was pushed to soft stones via typical recommendations into waterstones. The Shaptons are very hard and made me realize my true preferences.

The relation of hardness, binder, and abrasive release is a bit tough to explain with the Shapton stones. The Glass stones are harder but shed grit faster so they in turn wear faster. The Pro stones are softer but have a harder binder and release grit slower so they wear slower from 1k and up. Cutting speed is difficult to judge, the Pro stones are more aggressive and have more drag on the blade while the Glass stones are smoother and feel almost silky. The difference is more noticeable with harder steels though, the Glass stones keep their aggression where the pro stones tend to start feeling a little slippery on the edge (because it's not effectively cutting the steel).
 
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