Shapton glass or pro stones?

awestib

awestib

Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
1,647
Hey huys,
although I love HeavyHanded's washboard, particularly for my scandi and convex knives and diamond stones for v-edge, I am interested in getting some Shapton stones, given the positive reviews on recent threads. It seems that the pro stones have a "homogeneous ceramic sharpening matrix" where as the glass stones have "a layer of the highest quality ceramic sharpening matrix bonded to a polished tempered glass base" (I took this info for granted from the chefknivestogo-website).

So, what does this mean and what are the difference in real-world experience? Any help/advice welcome!!

Also, Happy Holidays to everybody!!
 
Well the difference between the Glass and Pro is negligable.

The Pros are thicker. You get much more abrasive with the pros.

The glass contain less abrasive mounted to glass and release that abrasive faster. Shapton says that the glass were formulated with high carbide steels in mind. But back then D2 was the high carbide steel.

On modern powdered steels the difference between the glass and the pro stones will be negligable. I use the pro stones and really like them. No matter which you get the stones will need help in order to tackle the Vanadium Carbides present in many modern steels. I just dope my stones with CBN or Diamond when needed.
 
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Sadden said:
Well the difference between the Glass and Pro is negligable.

The Pros are thicker. You get much more abrasive with the pros.

The glass contain less abrasive mounted to glass and release that abrasive faster. Shapton says that the gpass were formulated with high carbide steels in mind. But back then D2 was the high carbide steel.

On modern powdered steels the difference between the glass and the pro stones will be negligable. I uwe the pro stones and really like them. No matter which you get the stones will need help in order to tackle the Vanadium Carbides present in many modern steels. I just dope ky stones with CBN or Diamond when needed.
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I must respectfully disagree.

While I love all Shaptons, IME, the Glass Stones are noticeably superior on all steels. Especially the stuff like s90V, m390, K390, Etc.
 
Hey Ben. I think you and I have similar tastes.

To clear up what i said earlier. I'm simply saying that the Glass and the Pro stones have the same limitations , in that neither one of them can cut Vanadium Carbide found in many modern steels. This means that whether you use the Glass or the Pro you will still have the limiting factor in that when the Carbide size of the steel exceeds the size of your abrasive you wont be able to take that edge any further without the help of CBN/Diamond. In the lower grits the Glass will certainly cut faster than the Pro , as the Glass releases more abrasive at a quicker rate. But the Glass also wear out faster than the Pro as a result.

On a scale of 1-10 for handling high Carbide steels.

Waterstones are a 1
Pro is a 1.5
Glasstones are a 2
Monocrystalline Diamond is a 8
CBN is a 9
Polycrystalline Diamond is a 10

Put a drop of CBN/Diamond on a Pro stone and the glass stones and the glass stones barely register on the scale. Not to say that you can't dope the glasstones. You and I need to Skype sometime buddy and chat about sharpening.
 
Sadden said:
Hey Ben. I think you and I have similar tastes.

To clear up what i said earlier. I'm simply saying that the Glass and the Pro stones have the same limitations , in that neither one of them can cut Vanadium Carbide found in many modern steels. This means that whether you use the Glass or the Pro you will still have the limiting factor in that when the Carbide size of the steel exceeds the size of your abrasive you wont be able to take that edge any further without the help of CBN/Diamond. In the lower grits the Glass will certainly cut faster than the Pro , as the Glass releases more abrasive at a quicker rate. But the Glass also wear out faster than the Pro as a result.

On a scale of 1-10 for handling high Carbide steels.

Waterstones are a 1
Pro is a 1.5
Glasstones are a 2
Monocrystalline Diamond is a 8
CBN is a 9
Polycrystalline Diamond is a 10

Put a drop of CBN/Diamond on a Pro stone and the glass stones and the glass stones barely register on the scale. Not to say that you can't dope the glasstones. You and I need to Skype sometime buddy and chat about sharpening.
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I wish you could explain the difference in doping between the two. I am on the edge of purchasing four glass stones and I have a ton of high wear steels in my collection and plenty of diamond and CBN compounds. Russ
 
When you dope the Glasstones vs the Pros , the difference is negligible. The performance jump is so large , if someone can tell the difference I would like to meet them :)

The question becomes whether you want to pay for 5mm of abrasive mounted to 5mm of float glass, or if you want to pay for 17mm of pure abrasive. Obviously I went with the Pro stones.

The more important part of doping stones is making sure that you are using a water soluble preparation. Im not shy about stating that I get all my compounds from Ken Schwartz. All of his compounds come in a water soluble variation. (there are some oil based preparations for used with linen belts on belt sanders as well , and buffing wheels)

I have used CBN , Polycrystalline diamond and Boron Carbide preparations all with great success , and even have some aluminum oxide stuff coming to play with. (note the aluminum oxide and boron carbide will not cut vanadium carbide). You can use them to make different stone do different things.
 
I use the glass stones and they cut the most wear resistant steel I own, which is m390. I have never considered adding CBN or poly diamond solutions on the waterstone before and its something I'm considering to try. Those cbn and poly diamond solutions are really pricey though so I probably won't be trying it for awhile.

From what I understand and read, the glass-stones are harder than the pros and cut more wear resistent steels. It is only 5mm of abrasive though. I used my 500 stone heavily sharpening A LOT of kitchen knives and I didn't take care to flatten the stone properly. When I finally acquired a diamond plate for flattening the 500 stone did become flat, but no parallel to the base since I had used the stone unevenly. My 1k and 4k stone however seem fine and should last a long while. All in all I feel like they're good stone for the half of a year I've owned them. My biggest complaint probably is feedback, but I use this tile rubbing stone (recommend by HeavyHanded) as my designated slurry stone now and it works great.
 
I am re thinking my purchase but will most likely go 220, 500, 1000, 6000 glass. I have them in edge pro and they cut pretty well in these grits. The higher grits may have issues but I think these are bigger than vanadium carbide. Russ
 
Thanks for all this guys - I don't even know anymore now why I not just stick with my diamond stones! Dope a stone? Polydiamond solution on a "waterstone" - what? That's too high for me and my needs - my verdict: I will stick with my diamond stones.

Thanks again
 
awestib said:
Thanks for all this guys - I don't even know anymore now why I not just stick with my diamond stones! Dope a stone? Polydiamond solution on a "waterstone" - what? That's too high for me and my needs - my verdict: I will stick with my diamond stones.

Thanks again
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I've looked around a little, but haven't found any waterstones that use silicon carbide for the entire range, though many use it for the low end. Closest solution I found for a "waterstone feel" stone that could handle anything are the jointer stones used with oil. They're real inexpensive compared to a lot of other alternatives, but they also don't come in the finer grit. Top out at about 600-800 and then would need help from some creative stropping. Have used the mud from my Tyrolit stone on paper to get a better polish, both wrapped around a stone, and on my Washboard - works very well but maybe not the solution you're looking for...
 
mycough said:
I am re thinking my purchase but will most likely go 220, 500, 1000, 6000 glass. I have them in edge pro and they cut pretty well in these grits. The higher grits may have issues but I think these are bigger than vanadium carbide. Russ
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Yeah. Like i said they will have the same limitations. But up until that point they will.cut faster. I have read theory that Vanadium Carbide ranges from 2micron to 4micron. I havent seen any proof or scientific anylsis otherwise. But if thats true then that means that waterstones alone would be effective up until the 4000-8000 range. Which coonisides with my own findings.
 
fervens said:
Heavyhanded. Have you liked at the sigma power select ii stones?
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I've done some reading about them, but still cannot tell what the abrasive is, probably not silicon carbide based on the "durable abrasive" definition in most of the sale descriptions. Not that it would be mandatory, but there are only three common minerals that can reliably work Vanadium carbides at the high end of their potential hardness - diamond, BN/CBN, and silicon carbide. Throw in the price considerations and my needs aren't great enough to make me reach for my wallet.

Those jointer stones are an extremely cost effective alternative to the more aggressive waterstones, and being SiC they grind anything. The "finishing" stone is fairly rough by most standards (IIRC it lists at 500 or 600 grit), but being bound in a resin they make an edge much finer than their rated grit. Can also be used with or without oil and can be used to backhone for a final step. With oil they feel and act just like a slightly soft waterstone - maybe a bit harder than my Norton waterstones. These were my go-to right up until I narrowed down the Washboard design and I still highly recommend them. Pretty unorthodox though, cannot blame anyone for not picking up a set :) but they DO work very well. I have the specs on the ones I use if anyone is interested, they only run about $25 or $30 apiece, and for hand sharpening they wear very slowly.
 
Sadden said:
Hey Ben. I think you and I have similar tastes.

To clear up what i said earlier. I'm simply saying that the Glass and the Pro stones have the same limitations , in that neither one of them can cut Vanadium Carbide found in many modern steels. This means that whether you use the Glass or the Pro you will still have the limiting factor in that when the Carbide size of the steel exceeds the size of your abrasive you wont be able to take that edge any further without the help of CBN/Diamond. In the lower grits the Glass will certainly cut faster than the Pro , as the Glass releases more abrasive at a quicker rate. But the Glass also wear out faster than the Pro as a result.

On a scale of 1-10 for handling high Carbide steels.

Waterstones are a 1
Pro is a 1.5
Glasstones are a 2
Monocrystalline Diamond is a 8
CBN is a 9
Polycrystalline Diamond is a 10

Put a drop of CBN/Diamond on a Pro stone and the glass stones and the glass stones barely register on the scale. Not to say that you can't dope the glasstones. You and I need to Skype sometime buddy and chat about sharpening.
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My experience is much the same. When I get to the 5K level and above, on high carbide steels, I prefer to lightly dope the stones with appropriately sized CBN or poly diamond. It appears out methods are quite similar!:thumbup:
 
Except that silicon carbide cannot cut vandium.carbide. With something that coarse you arent considering the carbides yet anyways.
 
Sadden said:
Except that silicon carbide cannot cut vandium.carbide. With something that coarse you arent considering the carbides yet anyways.
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Your thinking about carbides too much, that play a role but not that big of one.

Silicon carbide rates on the Mohs scale as does most other abrasives which is much harder than steel. It's actually not far off from ceramic and diamond. Vanadium carbides do great at adding wear resistance but I have sharpened steels such as S30V with Norton India and SiC stones, I've also sharpened it with king waterstones, its very slow going in some cases but works. Actually, the 1k King stone put a nice edge on my spyderco military with its S30V blade.

I would rather use diamond hones in most cases but the simple stuff can still work.
 
There are many things that rate between 9 and 10 on Mohs scale. Heres the the thijgs. Mohs scale is not linear. Diamond being a perfect 10 is four times harder than ruby , being a perfect 9. So the difference between 9.x and 9.y is going to be quite large.

All i am saying , is that its kind of a moot point until you reach a level of refinement where the carbides become larger than the abrasive you are using. At which point in time you need to either switch to CBN or Diamond.
 
Glass stones for the fact that you can use the stone all the way down to the glass without worrying about it breaking part the way through when it starts to get thin.
Just make sure to keep your stones flat.
 
Sadden said:
Except that silicon carbide cannot cut vandium.carbide. With something that coarse you arent considering the carbides yet anyways.
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That all depends on which scale one uses apparently - have seen vanadium carbide listed above and below silicon carbide. Also within the range of possible rating on the Mohs scale, vanadium can be low9s to mid 9s, making it workable with higher purity alumox in some cases, well within reach of SiC and only a problem at the theoretical highest potential hardness.

Additional consideration - the terminal apex width isn't really defined by the abrasive size, only its uniformity. If all the V carbides are simply being torn out of the steel matrix up to 1200 or 1500 ANSI, the edge wouldn't be getting sharp. 4 microns across an apex = dull knife or at the least, not very sharp. Have looked at D2 under high magnification after being worked on sandpaper and SIC compound - there were no 2u irregularities, let alone 4u.
 
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