Sharpened Pry Bar

M

me2

Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
5,080
Busses often get this label from different places around the internet. Having never owned one, but always curious, I was wondering if anyone could confirm or deny this by taking some measurements of the blade, edge, and edge angles they come with from Busse.

I recently reground two of my machetes and the performance increase in wood and weed chopping is dramatic. They are also much faster to resharpen, even after using them to cut roots and even as a garden spade. After cutting everything from cardboard to soft metal (old TV antennae cable), I'm curious if the Busse geometry is similar to my regrinds. For comparison, the reground blades have an edge angle between 18 and 20 degrees per side. Just behind the edge bevel, the thickness is between 0.015 and 0.025 inches. The primary grinds are roughly 4 degrees per side, and reach a height of 5/16" and 1/2" on 1/16" and 3/32" thick stock, respectively. For fairness sake, can anyone take some measurements of a larger Busse or Busse kin in the same places (above the edge, primary grind angle, edge angle)?
 
I don't have any right at hand, but should be able to get you some measurements in a couple of days. Let me know if you ever want to play with a couple of mine, I'll be happy to send them your way!
 
I am not really sure what the intention of this thread is. :confused:

13ninjas said:
LVC will be able to shed some light on this. I lack the proper tools.
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+1 Exactly.

And to figure out who LVC is, you can start expanding your research from different places around the internet here.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/906172-Posts-By-LVC

After which you can search for more posts from his full user name Last Visible Canary and you will find he has already done what you are asking for many times with different Busse blades.

As to my first hand knowledge, yes, some Busse knives are thicker than others, and not all of them are sharpened pry bars. You could order an anorexic Basic 4 right now, straight from Busse, and learn that first hand and for a very fair price for an entry into the world of INFI. ;)

All I have left to say is the Busse knives that are thick enough to be considered sharpened pry bars are meant to be the be all end all toughest blades on the planet with a warranty and the customer service to back it. Any questions?
 
Busse doesn't make any machetes (yet), so comparing your very thin bladed machete to any large Bussekin is not really fair to either knife. One is not necessarily better than the other, they're just different. The typical large Busse is a more robust blade, made of thicker stock, and thicker just behind the edge. 0.015" is pretty thin. Having said that, I find that thinning the edge down some and making the edge angles shallower does improve the cutting efficiency.
 
May I play with some of your blades?
I am also curious about the way they feel.
If it is cool, I would be happy to PM my address.
 
What I have found is this thinning did not affect durability for cutting even soft metals. Given Busses reputation for durability, I was wondering if they came with a thin edge to take advantage of this durability and the "sharpened pry bar" label was based on the spine thickness. I've watched Ankersons videos cutting with some of the shorter Busses and they seemed to do fine.
 
Infi is a steel with unusual properties, it can take a lot of lateral stress without breaking ... many other steels cannot ... a lot of other knife makers who use other steels will find that their knives if tested on lateral strength fail long before a blade from Infi will ... sour grapes being a common theme in any walk of life has lead to a Busse/Infi blade being referred to as a sharpened pry bar ... for those who are fortunate enough to own and use their Busse knives they know that they can re-profile the edge to whatever type of use suits their personal circumstances ... people have shaved with a Busse as large as a Khukri and as small as a knecker blade ... Infi will take a razor edge and can also be thinned behind the edge for specific uses which benefit from that type of geometry. If you want to chop through breeze blocks the larger blades come from the factory with around 25 degree edges per side which enable this without deformation and chipping of the edge. They come this way from the factory because you cannot add steel to a knife and the starting point needs to be a thick grind. However, for working with wood many of us thin the grind behind the edge and go for around a 20 degree primary bevel and 15 degree back bevel per side. Some may adopt a similar profile by convexing the edge into an appleseed shape rather than have two seperate angles. For fine cutting you can take Infi down to 15 degrees per side without undue rolling on the edge. Less than 15 degrees and you need careful technique to ensure the edge retention is not affected by rolling.

Your machetes will be thinner and have less edge retention than a Busse but like Infi although for a different reason (due to low Rc hardness) will withstand a lot of torque on the blade. They won't be as tough though as a comparative Infi knife of similar length. This will partly come from thicker construction of the Busse blade and partly from the properties of Infi as a steel. However, if you have the strength to use a long Busse blade such as a 12 inch NMFBM you will find many of your machetes/parang's become second choice ... I have used a .25 thick NMFBM instead of my Army issue Golok for the last 4-5 years or so ( whenever it was when the NMFBM's were first released ) and the difference is considerable on both chopping performance and lasting edge retention in the field.

Here is my NMFBM ...

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All that pretty much sums up what I thought. After regrinding the barong machete and using it for yard work, including as a spade and root cutter, I was amazed that the edge really only dulled in most places and took minor damage in a few others. Even chopping in the dirt to reach the roots of some bushes didn't break the edge. There were some dents in the edge that appear to have been from dirt on my chopping board and rocks/pebbles in the dirt. After cleaning the board and repeating some of the work with new brush and limbs, I have been unable to reproduce the dents from before. However, given the relatively soft nature of these machetes, I was wondering if a harder steel, like Infi, might minimize the damage even more. Hitting dirt and getting into gritty material is nearly unavoidable when doing machete type things. No matter how obtuse the edge, there will still be denting to some depth unless the steel is strong enough to prevent it. I'm just guessing, but the Busses standard treatment might be between 8 and 10 points harder than the machetes. I have not had primary bevel damage that could not be traced to actual edge failure, so in theory, I could actually thin the primary bevel even more, perhaps to 2 degrees per side, and keep the same 20 degree edge bevel. Stronger steel with adequate toughness would just make this ridiculous, and I'd soon start approaching a full flat grind on a 3" wide blade, down to an edge thickness of 0.01" or so. I was wondering if any Busses, as supplied, come anywhere near this condition from the shop, as it seems silly to buy a $300 knife only to regrind it to fit my uses. Also, for my work, edge retention is not an issue. Part of the reason for regrinding was to reduce sharpening time, but, as long as I avoid dirt, I could probably work 3 or 4 days without having to resharpen the machete. Avoiding damage is the major part of edge holding for what I was doing.
 
Busse edges aren't any thicker then any production knife out there. The Basic 10's are around 0.030-8 behind the edge with a primary grind of I think 4.0-.3 degrees per side and an edge grind around 24 degrees per side. pretty ideal for something off a production line intended to meet abuse at some point and not what I would call a sharpened pry bar. Obviously you could modify a Busse to the .020-0.15 behind the edge, the question is if that is still thick enough to prevent rolling.
 
me2 said:
All that pretty much sums up what I thought. After regrinding the barong machete and using it for yard work, including as a spade and root cutter, I was amazed that the edge really only dulled in most places and took minor damage in a few others. Even chopping in the dirt to reach the roots of some bushes didn't break the edge. There were some dents in the edge that appear to have been from dirt on my chopping board and rocks/pebbles in the dirt. After cleaning the board and repeating some of the work with new brush and limbs, I have been unable to reproduce the dents from before. However, given the relatively soft nature of these machetes, I was wondering if a harder steel, like Infi, might minimize the damage even more. Hitting dirt and getting into gritty material is nearly unavoidable when doing machete type things. No matter how obtuse the edge, there will still be denting to some depth unless the steel is strong enough to prevent it. I'm just guessing, but the Busses standard treatment might be between 8 and 10 points harder than the machetes. I have not had primary bevel damage that could not be traced to actual edge failure, so in theory, I could actually thin the primary bevel even more, perhaps to 2 degrees per side, and keep the same 20 degree edge bevel. Stronger steel with adequate toughness would just make this ridiculous, and I'd soon start approaching a full flat grind on a 3" wide blade, down to an edge thickness of 0.01" or so. I was wondering if any Busses, as supplied, come anywhere near this condition from the shop, as it seems silly to buy a $300 knife only to regrind it to fit my uses. Also, for my work, edge retention is not an issue. Part of the reason for regrinding was to reduce sharpening time, but, as long as I avoid dirt, I could probably work 3 or 4 days without having to resharpen the machete. Avoiding damage is the major part of edge holding for what I was doing.
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Now I get it. I used to be unable to justify the expense the same way until I finally decided to try one out first hand. Now to think of only getting 3 or 4 days between sharpening... ugh :barf: I remember those days, and I will never go back to wasting time sharpening my knives that often. After being used exactly the way you have described, including dirt contact/digging/root chopping, an average of three days a week for the past year while being my machete kept on my tractor to clean up the place. This is what the factory edge looks like on my Basic 11 I have owned for over a year, with the factory edge untouched, AND NOT SHARPENED EVER! That also includes chopping and splitting wood to feed the wood stove over the winter and cutting open some tin cans. You are paying more money for a higher quality blade that will spend way more time being used than being sharpened.
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And it still cuts and chops as well as the first time I used it. :thumbup:
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Once you try out INFI first hand, you will understand too. ;)
 
The one I just bought is an ASH-1 SE. It is a .22 inch full flat grind, and it came with an edge of somewhere around 30 degrees inclusive from the factory. Compare that to my Strider fixed blades, which are .25 inch, half to 3/4 grind, and a 45 degree inclusive edge, the Busse is a slicer!!!
 
AZTimT said:
Now I get it. I used to be unable to justify the expense the same way until I finally decided to try one out first hand. Now to think of only getting 3 or 4 days between sharpening... ugh :barf: I remember those days, and I will never go back to wasting time sharpening my knives that often. After being used exactly the way you have described, including dirt contact/digging/root chopping, an average of three days a week for the past year while being my machete kept on my tractor to clean up the place. This is what the factory edge looks like on my Basic 11 I have owned for over a year, with the factory edge untouched, AND NOT SHARPENED EVER! That also includes chopping and splitting wood to feed the wood stove over the winter and cutting open some tin cans. You are paying more money for a higher quality blade that will spend way more time being used than being sharpened.

And it still cuts and chops as well as the first time I used it. :thumbup:

Once you try out INFI first hand, you will understand too. ;)
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Are you sure it still cuts as well as the day you got it or does it just chop as well? I imagine me2 is maintaining a higher degree of sharpness then you are on the basic 11. While it might not be necessary to do so for the job, maintaining a razor sharp edge is easier with a grind that is thinner behind the edge. me2 is asking two questions, is Busse's geometry similar to his modified machetes, and could INFI support the very thin edges he is using. The first question is the geometry is similar but the thickness behind the edge is different. The answer to the second question is we aren't completely sure what the limitations are but I wouldn't be uncomfortable with .015-.020" behind the edge.
 
Of the ten Busse users that I own,from 4" progressivly getting larger up to about 12" they all came with razor sharp,long lasting,what I would call a utility edge. I prefer a thinner grind on my medium to smaller blades. So I drew the line right down the middle. I took the ASH1(fatty) and every blade larger and left the factory angle. The skinny ASH and every blade smaller went to the belt sander where I knocked the shoulders down and put a thinner convex zero edge. Now my larger Busse have the thicker edge to carry there weight and the smaller thinner Busse perform much better for me.
 
Some Busses could qualify as sharpened pry bars, some not so much. The thick edges go hand in hand with the no nonsense lifetime warranty...

My Precious.:D And no longer a sharpened pry bar.
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I had about 30 different Busse models and only ONE of them deserves the label "sharpened pry bar": the original BOSS Street
Most others feel "solid" at most (e.g. Tankbuster, FFBM) and some even leave an almost "fragile" impression (e.g. CABS or BWM)

For me, the sharpened pry bar myth is busted
 
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