Sharpening High Vanadium Knives

Hi,
What does it do? What about a "honing plastic", does a piece of plastic realign the apex?
I assume you mean stropping on a plastic surface, rather than an edge leading stroke on a plastic rod...

I can't generalize to every possible permutation. However, for a low-angle edge rolled as in the above image, I have never successfully straightened the apex by stropping. The apex simply breaks away. Keep in mind that a broken off burr leaves a very nice working edge that many people would prefer to the initial keen edge.

It IS possible to straighten a deflected apex; however, deflection occurs at a much larger scale, typically tens of microns. The image below is from the same blade I showed above with the mushroomed edge. You can see a chip at the top, a deflection in the middle. The apex near the bottom and along the deflected area is mushroomed. I expect it should be possible to re-align this type of deflection by stropping on plastic.
s30v_dull_02.jpg
 
I have a feeling that people use the term "rolling" because they imagine that a honing rod "re-aligns" the apex (it doesn't).

Todd, I am also very interested to know your opinion on what is happening when we steel.
I'd presume steeling on a smooth steel rod will realign the structural elements of the apex, though not straighten the roll just press it flush with the edge - but this is only my mental visualization.

We've seen a great deal of difference between meat plant operators who steel every 5-10 cuts and keep their knife edge arm-shaving sharp for hours, versus others that wouldn't steel that often and have their knife blunt in 2-3 hours to unusable.
In 3 hours of boning, the first had their knife edge visibly straight, scoring around 150-200 BESS, while those who won't bother steeling had the edge that felt like a 2-sided scraper and scoring 500-800 BESS.
 
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In my experience with scythe blades, which are ground at only 7-9° per side and honed to a burr-free (or as close to it as possible) coarse edge, that most of the dulling occurs from micro-deformation of the apex and stropping with a bare wooden stick is enough to restore the edge a good 3-5 times before a stone is required to touch the edge up. This is likely when the apex is breaking off. This is anecdotal, of course, but I've found that this practice greatly prolongs the edge compared to using a stone every time the edge loses its keenness.
 
In my experience with scythe blades, which are ground at only 7-9° per side and honed to a burr-free (or as close to it as possible) coarse edge, that most of the dulling occurs from micro-deformation of the apex and stropping with a bare wooden stick is enough to restore the edge a good 3-5 times before a stone is required to touch the edge up. This is likely when the apex is breaking off. This is anecdotal, of course, but I've found that this practice greatly prolongs the edge compared to using a stone every time the edge loses its keenness.

That's exactly what I've seen in using a smooth (polished) steel to maintain some of my kitchen knives in low-alloy stainless. I keep them pretty thin at the edge; when used for fruits & veggies on a poly cutting board, which doesn't induce much wear on the edge, they hold up for quite a long time when steeled on the smooth rod. But there comes a time when I'll start noticing the edge getting weak from repeated realigning over that time; it rolls much too easily, even in simple tasks like cutting paper or under pressure from my thumbnail. And the smooth steel rod can't fix that. That's when I lightly scrub the apex off on a stone and reset the edge. Then it's back to several more weeks of use, with just the smooth steel doing the upkeep. That approach has been working very well for me.

I've even starting using the smooth steel to de-burr and/or align a fresh edge on knives in similar steels, straight from resharpening on a stone. When a newly-created burr rolls to one side and is easily detected by feel or in paper-cutting tests for sharpness, it's easy to see how the steel rod cleans up and straightens the edge after a few passes. I've actually come to prefer this over stropping, on the knives that respond to it, as there's no risk of rounding, blunting or over-polishing the new apex this way, as can happen on a loaded strop.
 
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In my limited experience, scythe blades are made of soft steel, and peening work hardens the steel near the cutting edge. Then the scythe stone is used to maintain that work-hardened edge. I simply don't know much about the behavior of soft steels in sharpening.

I've only looked at steeling on a few hard knife steels and carbon steel utility blades. What I observed is that honing rods (including polished steel) primarily cut a micro-bevel; however, there is some burnishing or "pushing around" of steel occurring as well. My speculation is that where soft steel can be work-hardened, hard steel is "work-softened" and it's only that soft steel (near the apex) that can be pushed around. For example, I expect that "mushroom" in the image above is softer than the original blade.

The question I have is what happens to the apex of a meat packers blade after many rounds of non-abrasive use and steeling? Does this create a band of softer steel near the apex that is hard enough to cut meat, but soft enough to be "re-aligned" with a honing rod without breaking off?
 
Todd, I am also very interested to know your opinion on what is happening when we steel.
I'd presume steeling on a smooth steel rod will realign the structural elements of the apex, though not straighten the roll just press it flush with the edge - but this is only my mental visualization.

We've seen a great deal of difference between meat plant operators who steel every 5-10 cuts and keep their knife edge arm-shaving sharp for hours, versus others that wouldn't steel that often and have their knife blunt in 2-3 hours to unusable.
In 3 hours of boning, the first had their knife edge visibly straight, scoring around 150-200 BESS, while those who won't bother steeling had the edge like a 2-sides scraper and scoring 500-800 BESS.


https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/a-very-quick-and-close-look-at-steeling.956235/

I suspect with enough force it can press a rolled section into something of an edge. It is also liable to draw it out into a wire/burr. If the tool is being used hard enough and tuned with enough frequency, a burr or wire here and there is not a problem.
 
Another thread that is a great read. Thanks wootzblade wootzblade for taking the time to put together that test and post it, and trigger this discussion.

42, I could not agree more with your comment. I've heard positive comments about Elmax from a few people now (@Jason B. and @DeadboxHero, and others) that Elmax seems to hit some kind of a sweet spot in terms of wear resistance, toughness, edge retention, and ease of sharpening. That has been my experience with it too. And quite similar with S35vn that has had good HT. Which again makes you wonder if there is something to the idea that these steels in the roughly 3% vanadium range strike a good balance of being high-performing steels that you can ALSO sharpen, at least in part of the sharpening process, without having to resort to diamonds to get optimal sharpness and retention.


I would be particularly interested in seeing testing done comparing effectiveness of 3%+ vanadium steels being ground and honed using a progression from silicon carbide transitioning to diamond to see at what grit range diamond actually makes a difference in final edge retention, and at what grit the silicon carbide really starts struggling with removing material.
 
This would require a good bit of sharpening and cutting using the two type grits and 1 or 2 s30v blades. Which I have. I'll think on it. DM
 
This is very interesting!! I had inconsistent results with my BESS sharpness tester that I never got to the bottom of so it's hard for me to fully trust it yet
 
This is very interesting!! I had inconsistent results with my BESS sharpness tester that I never got to the bottom of so it's hard for me to fully trust it yet

Hi mate, you may wish to read this post on our Australian forum to better the tester results consistency.
PT50 sharpness testing technique and factors affecting accuracy

Slack test line is the most common culprit - since the test media is not stretchable under the load your fingers can give it, we tighten it tight every time, and provided the edge is burr-free and not coarse or rolled, get repeatable reading within +/- 50 BESS with the PT50B and +/- 1-5 BESS with the PT50A. As an example, in our video posted in this thread you can see the reading of 244 repeats itself exactly.
 
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That's exactly what I've seen in using a smooth (polished) steel to maintain some of my kitchen knives in low-alloy stainless. I keep them pretty thin at the edge; when used for fruits & veggies on a poly cutting board, which doesn't induce much wear on the edge, they hold up for quite a long time when steeled on the smooth rod. But there comes a time when I'll start noticing the edge getting weak from repeated realigning over that time; it rolls much too easily, even in simple tasks like cutting paper or under pressure from my thumbnail. And the smooth steel rod can't fix that. That's when I lightly scrub the apex off on a stone and reset the edge. Then it's back to several more weeks of use, with just the smooth steel doing the upkeep. That approach has been working very well for me.

I've even starting using the smooth steel to de-burr and/or align a fresh edge on knives in similar steels, straight from resharpening on a stone. When a newly-created burr rolls to one side and is easily detected by feel or in paper-cutting tests for sharpness, it's easy to see how the steel rod cleans up and straightens the edge after a few passes. I've actually come to prefer this over stropping, on the knives that respond to it, as there's no risk of rounding, blunting or over-polishing the new apex this way, as can happen on a loaded strop.

I want to take the occasion to thank you for your posts on this forum where you commented on the high Vanadium blades responding differently to common abrasives versus diamond. It is reading them that pushed me to design this SET testing.

Back to steeling - I only have to add that professional boners steel slowly and very gently, just 2 passes each side on a smooth/polished facet of the steel rod. They all use a combination square steeling "rod" with polished and abrasive facets, and when the apex comes to its weak point that you've described, they give it a few strokes on the abrasive facet.
I don't suppose the operators read Verhoeven's study, but they steel exactly as per Verhoeven recommendation.

Steeling is the main skill that creates difference between the Grade 5 and Grade 3 boning operators; in our meat plant assessment, with the skilled Grade 5 operators it is not unusual to see the sharpness scores going higher in the last hour of using the knife thanks to the correct steeling.
Below is an excerpt from a feedback of the skilled one:
" I worked in boning rooms for many years and now have been sharpening knives full-time the past twenty years.
When working in the boning rooms as a boner, after sharpening my knife it needed to shave after steeling for necessary sharpness to work with.
Steeling is necessary to get through the day. Correct steel use is a major skill needed to maintain the edge."

BTW, later this week on the BESS forum we are posting a PDF of the article in the Australian Meat News about our research at a meat plant that among other data has sharpness scores by steeling skills.
 
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In my limited experience, scythe blades are made of soft steel, and peening work hardens the steel near the cutting edge. Then the scythe stone is used to maintain that work-hardened edge. I simply don't know much about the behavior of soft steels in sharpening.

I've only looked at steeling on a few hard knife steels and carbon steel utility blades. What I observed is that honing rods (including polished steel) primarily cut a micro-bevel; however, there is some burnishing or "pushing around" of steel occurring as well. My speculation is that where soft steel can be work-hardened, hard steel is "work-softened" and it's only that soft steel (near the apex) that can be pushed around. For example, I expect that "mushroom" in the image above is softer than the original blade.

The question I have is what happens to the apex of a meat packers blade after many rounds of non-abrasive use and steeling? Does this create a band of softer steel near the apex that is hard enough to cut meat, but soft enough to be "re-aligned" with a honing rod without breaking off?

I use American scythes, which are quite hard in most cases. American axes are renowned for having very hard bits, to the point where many times files cannot cut them. Historical notes on American scythe tempering states that they should be made "a little harder than an axe". :)
 
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/a-very-quick-and-close-look-at-steeling.956235/

I suspect with enough force it can press a rolled section into something of an edge. It is also liable to draw it out into a wire/burr. If the tool is being used hard enough and tuned with enough frequency, a burr or wire here and there is not a problem.

Thank you for your notes and the link, an excellent read.
I always learn something new from you.
I've applied your washboard principle to one of my paper wheels, and see it producing a better edge in the final honing as compared to a regular paper wheel.
 
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Thank you for your notes and the link, an excellent read.
I always learn something new from you.
I've applied your washboard principle to one of my paper wheels, and see it producing a better edge in the final honing as compared to a regular paper wheel.

Please elaborate if it is not crossing into proprietary territory. I've used it on vertical and flat hone rotary with mixed results mostly based on the limitations of the materials and means of preparation. Where it is a good fit it seems to work well very consistently, and where it doesn't, many other strategies tend to struggle as well.


Steeling is the main skill that creates difference between the Grade 5 and Grade 3 boning operators; in our meat plant assessment, with the skilled Grade 5 operators it is not unusual to see the sharpness scores going higher in the last hour of using the knife thanks to the correct steeling.
Below is an excerpt from a feedback of the skilled one:
" I worked in boning rooms for many years and now have been sharpening knives full-time the past twenty years.
When working in the boning rooms as a boner, after sharpening my knife it needed to shave after steeling for necessary sharpness to work with.
Steeling is necessary to get through the day. Correct steel use is a major skill needed to maintain the edge."

BTW, later this week on the BESS forum we are posting a PDF of the article in the Australian Meat News about our research at a meat plant that among other data has sharpness scores by steeling skills.

Looking forward to this! I always found steeling to be a great technique but extremely dependent on finesse - to the point of becoming troublesome. But with enough time in, with the right blade steel, and if the returns are worth it, I can see where it it could and does assume a commanding role in high demand environments.
 
Another interesting conclusion from the sharpness data is that there is no correlation between the wear resistance and resilience to initial rolling.
In the first impacts a 10% vanadium edge apex will roll to the same extent as 3%, and only by 30% less than a mainstream steel.
In the long run the more wear-resistant steel wins, but it looses its initial sharpness almost at the same rate as a mainstream knife.
I am sure you've observed this in your high-end knives.

Details are here:
http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=326
 
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Another interesting conclusion from the sharpness data is that there is no correlation between the wear resistance and resilience to initial rolling.
In the first impacts a 10% vanadium edge apex will roll to the same extent as 3%, and only by 30% less than a mainstream steel.
In the long run the more wear-resistant steel wins, but it looses its initial sharpness almost at the same rate as a mainstream knife.
I am sure you've observed this in your high-end knives.

Details are here:
http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=326

Which may explain why s110v loses it's keenness rather quickly but is able to keep a working edge for a long time?
 
Yes ^ and this is part of the turn offs with the vanadium steels. This and sharpening. I think they lose this keenness at a little
quicker rate than cpm154. Then hold a somewhat slower cutting edge a little longer. But then you spend more time sharpening to get it back. Whereas with cpm154 (and like steels) you can get the keen edge back quicker because you don't have to deal
with the vanadium carbides. DM
 
Yes ^ and this is part of the turn offs with the vanadium steels. This and sharpening. I think they lose this keenness at a little
quicker rate than cpm154. Then hold a somewhat slower cutting edge a little longer. But then you spend more time sharpening to get it back. Whereas with cpm154 (and like steels) you can get the keen edge back quicker because you don't have to deal
with the vanadium carbides. DM

My good friend, knife maker Jerry Halfrich, has for years said that the reason he prefers CPM 154 is due to its balance. Balance in edge holding and performance, ability to withstand the elements, and ease of maintenance.

Jerry was one of the first makers I was aware of, going back several years, who experimented with higher end steels which have now become part of common parlance. But no matter how impressed he was with the capabilities of some of the super steels he made knives from, his bread and butter remained CPM 154 for the reasons stated.

For the record, aside from being a fine maker, Jerry also guides hunts in Texas and elsewhere in the continental U.S. and Alaska, and builds custom rifle barrels. He is a man who understands steel, its capablitiy and edge geometry. I've never seen a knife from Jerry, the edge of which didn't bring a smile to someone's face.

Balance.

(That said, I'm always intrigued by the latest super steels.)
 
As my experience with sharpening increased over time, my preferences shifted away from high-edge retention steels to "good enough" edge retention steel that were quick and easy to sharpen and just having good blade geometry quickly jumped to being THE top priority.
 
As my experience with sharpening increased over time, my preferences shifted away from high-edge retention steels to "good enough" edge retention steel that were quick and easy to sharpen and just having good blade geometry quickly jumped to being THE top priority.

Interestingly enough, in that regard, several years ago I sent Jerry Halfrich a number of knives to mess around with and test...they included forged 52100 by ABS master smith Rick Dunkerley, 5160 by Idaho Knife Works, vintage Case carbon steel (1095) from the "Tested" era as well as some other carbon steels. I may have sent him some forged O1 as well but don't specifically recall.

When Jerry sent 'em back, he had a big smile on his face following the testing of 52100. He just loved the performance of that fine grained steel and its ability for taking and holding a keen edge.

(I've been a big fan of 52100 for a few decades.)

Sorry for the short detour from the high Vanadium steel...but it all comes around to pluses, minuses and balance in the end.
 
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