Sharpening Japanese knives

[SVTFreak]

Hello y’all. Let me start by saying I have looked at a dizzying number of threads and videos. My head is spinning. So many terms and makers and such. That said, I’m going to break down what I will have abs ask what I need.

I am not a professional chef. Simply home cooking. I do the family cooking. Love to cook. I am upgrading my knives through the next couple months. I have decided on Yaxell Mon chefs knives in a few different patterns. They are 3 layer vg10 advertised at 61 hrc. I also have a larger custom made chefs knife coming Monday that is W2 steel and measured at 60 hrc.

That said, I need help selecting how I will sharpen these new knives. I am no stranger to hand sharpening, having grown up doing it in Arkansas oil stones, and am not against it. I could use some practice and will get that on my old ones before touching the new ones. On my carry knives, usually set the desired bevel on a gatco diamond system (like a lansky). Then I touch up on sharpmaker. Not sure that info matters here. Basically, if I need to do some serious reprofiling, I would probably do it the same way, unless there is a reason to not. Beyond that, I like ease of maintenance. Anywhere I could use, say for instance, DMT diamond plates that require no maintenance, that would be great. Can I use those as course, then switch to water stones for finishing? Should I go with water stones or would the shapton glass work for longer without having to flatten them? What grits do I need? I don’t mind spending a little, but rather not break the bank.

If you, more knowledgeable and experienced people, where in my position with those steels, what stones would you use, and why? I’m trying to save myself a long and expensive learning curve here.


Side question, generally, how long does a water stone last considering use and lapping flat over time? How often does it need lapping?

Thanks a bunch in advance.

Pic for amusement. The custom knife that should be here Monday.

 

[Eli Chaps]

My friend, I am going through this very journey as you can see by a thread down the page a bit.

Just don't screw around. Get water stones. I've had my first one for only a few days and it has nearly eclipsed 40 years of other stones and I've been a HUGE fan of Arkansas stones. I should have adopted these years ago.

Don't stress life span.

I wanted splash and go and went with Shapton Glass. So nice! There's a ton of options and it can be so overwhelming. Don't let it be! Just do some research and then pick something and go. You can always adjust later if you want but otherwise you'll just be wasting time.

I will get a finer grit but the 2k Shapton Glass finish I have now produces an excellent working edge.

 

[SVTFreak]

My friend, I am going through this very journey as you can see by a thread down the page a bit.

Just don't screw around. Get water stones. I've had my first one for only a few days and it has nearly eclipsed 40 years of other stones and I've been a HUGE fan of Arkansas stones. I should have adopted these years ago.

Don't stress life span.

I wanted splash and go and went with Shapton Glass. So nice! There's a ton of options and it can be so overwhelming. Don't let it be! Just do some research and then pick something and go. You can always adjust later if you want but otherwise you'll just be wasting time.

I will get a finer grit but the 2k Shapton Glass finish I have now produces an excellent working edge.

Yessir, Eli, I have been watching your thread closely.

So, is there, say, 3 stones shapton glass (is it HC?) that I should go with? A course, medium and fine maybe? Would that get me up and going? Would 2k be the middle one?

 

[Eli Chaps]

Yessir, Eli, I have been watching your thread closely.

So, is there, say, 3 stones shapton glass (is it HC?) that I should go with? A course, medium and fine maybe? Would that get me up and going? Would 2k be the middle one?

I CANNOT speak with any kind of authority here.

I believe the HC line is specifically geared toward carbon steels.

Jason B. recommended to me the 500, 2k, and 16k.

I started with the 2k only because I knew the knives I was going to start messing with were already sharp. Otherwise I would start with the 500.

I'm not sure I'll ever get a 16k but maybe a 6 or 8.

 

[SVTFreak]

Thank, Eli! That gives me a good place to start.

2k to 16k seems like a big jump. I think 6-8 is prolly perfect for me. Think..... can always add one later lol

 

[Eli Chaps]

Again, I can only say to just pick something and get started. Don't wait. There is so much information out there that it is so easy to get stuck in analysis paralysis. Just go.

 

[Ourorboros]

If you want to set a new bevel or thin, you'd want something coarse than a 500.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Shapton Glass 500 but I use it to quickly apex.
For maintenance after than, a SG Glass 2000 or Kohetsu 2000 are great - the Kohetsu is a soaking stone though. Different feels, both will easily handle VG-10 or Shirogami.
After that, it's purely taste. A lot of people go no higher than a 4K stone because they cut a lot of meat. Personally I polish.

But don't get the idea that just because a Shapton Glass stays flat that you can ignore flattening. It take a while to dish, but it's also that much harder to flatten.

If you don't chip your knife or need to thin or reprofile, your diamond plates won't come into play.

 

[Ourorboros]

For finishing, you may or may not want to stay within the Shapton line, depending on the edge you want.
Choseras leave a smoother edge even when you take into account the difference in ratings. How much bite you want depends largely on style. I like the results of submicron edges.
Or you can use a loaded strop. If you aren't sure about putting the money into a polishing stone, see how you feel about the effects of stropping after the 2K edge.

 

[SVTFreak]

Thanks Ouror. Maybe I’ll start at 2k and stropped and see how I like that. I do like a little bite in the edge. Just a little

 

[wade7575]

For my Japanese Chef knives I really like the way the edge comes out with Chosera stones they are all excellent.

 

[Ourorboros]

For my Japanese Chef knives I really like the way the edge comes out with Chosera stones they are all excellent.

Yeah, but sticker shock sets in for a lot of people.
One the polishing end, the Naniwa Gouken Arata are thinner Chosera/Naniwa Professional, in a plastic case without a nagura. Really saves money on that 10K.

SVTFreak, if you aren't going to use harder steels like AS or HAP40 taken to 63+HRC the Shapton Pros give the most bang for the buck. Often recommended for those new to J-knives. The Glass Stones are better, especially with harder steels, but cost more. The Pros really do like that 58-61 HRC range of most Japanese knives though.

As I said, get one and play around with it. From there you can get an idea of which way you'd like to go - a bit softer with more feedback, how much finer, etc.

 

[ddallam]

Hello y’all. Let me start by saying I have looked at a dizzying number of threads and videos. My head is spinning. So many terms and makers and such. That said, I’m going to break down what I will have abs ask what I need.

I am not a professional chef. Simply home cooking. I do the family cooking. Love to cook. I am upgrading my knives through the next couple months. I have decided on Yaxell Mon chefs knives in a few different patterns. They are 3 layer vg10 advertised at 61 hrc. I also have a larger custom made chefs knife coming Monday that is W2 steel and measured at 60 hrc.

That said, I need help selecting how I will sharpen these new knives. I am no stranger to hand sharpening, having grown up doing it in Arkansas oil stones, and am not against it. I could use some practice and will get that on my old ones before touching the new ones. On my carry knives, usually set the desired bevel on a gatco diamond system (like a lansky). Then I touch up on sharpmaker. Not sure that info matters here. Basically, if I need to do some serious reprofiling, I would probably do it the same way, unless there is a reason to not. Beyond that, I like ease of maintenance. Anywhere I could use, say for instance, DMT diamond plates that require no maintenance, that would be great. Can I use those as course, then switch to water stones for finishing? Should I go with water stones or would the shapton glass work for longer without having to flatten them? What grits do I need? I don’t mind spending a little, but rather not break the bank.

If you, more knowledgeable and experienced people, where in my position with those steels, what stones would you use, and why? I’m trying to save myself a long and expensive learning curve here.


Side question, generally, how long does a water stone last considering use and lapping flat over time? How often does it need lapping?

Thanks a bunch in advance.

Pic for amusement. The custom knife that should be here Monday.

For Japanese knives, Chosera 800 or Cerax 1000 for regularly maintaining razor sharpness. Later add a Rika 5000 if want a near-mirror polish finish and intend to push-cut. Soak both no more than 15 minutes. This is what it took me years to learn: Higher grits doesn’t mean sharper, technique does. master the 800-1000 stone before buying a higher grit stone.

 

[bgentry]

You've gotten a lot of suggestions about stones I know very little about. I'm not going to offer any more.

Instead I want to discuss the difference between various "Japanese knives". A real traditional Japanese kitchen knife would be made in clad steel construction. Usually with carbon steel throughout with the core being harder and the exterior being more ductile.

Sharpening these clad blades normally involves thinning them by grinding the sides nearly flat on a stone. If you use the right combination of stone and steel apparently this can look good. More importantly, it increases performance by giving you a thin blade.

However, if the looks are important to you, you'll want to be really careful with this technique. My only Japanese style knife (which is not from Japan) is made with a single blank of stainless steel. It's not clad and it's not carbon steel. I thinned this blade a while back and the results were cosmetically awful. Really bad. Didn't really cut any better either. Though I got it extremely sharp. Later I fixed my cosmetic mistake using a belt sander and the blade looks nice again. But this took a lot of work.

Your chosen blades seem to be clad construction, but with stainless; not carbon steel. This will likely end up looking bad if you thin it with the traditional method. I kind of wonder what the appeal of a stainless clad blade is. Perhaps there's some good reason.

I would personally probably be inclined towards a mono-steel blade. Or perhaps towards a carbon steel clad blade. But only if I was willing to do the extra care that a carbon blade requires: Never leaving it wet or with food sitting on the blade for more than a few minutes. ...and all the rest.

If you listen to really knowledgeable people like Jason B, you'll find that the stone you use should be tailored to the steel you are cutting. Particularly if you are thinning the blade. The famous "kasumi" finish (mist) comes from a specific kind of stone and works best on the steels it was designed for.

You can get really far into this if you want. Much of what I've discussed here I have not bothered with. I now sharpen my Japanese style Gyuto on a belt sander and get very, very sharp edges that just fly through food. My waterstones sit unused for various reasons.

Just some things to think about.

Brian.

 

[Jason B.]

Thank, Eli! That gives me a good place to start.

2k to 16k seems like a big jump. I think 6-8 is prolly perfect for me. Think..... can always add one later lol

500, 2000 and 16,000 are Shapton recommended progressions, Ive just followed their recommendations on how to use their stones. This combo of stones works very well and the 16k is more like a "strop", it can polish the edge quite well but the idea is to create a toothy-polish for the best edge performance. The 500-2k-16k set does this perfectly and is very different than following with a 4k, 6k or 8k stone. Although I must mention, the 4kSG is one of the best 4k stones money can buy.

O Ourorboros
Naniwa Gouken and Naniwa Chosera are different lines of stone, I have a few of both.

 

[oceanrider]

I recommend you check out Matt Hendricks wet stone sharpening videos. Matt is one of the best wet stone sharpeners in America IMO. He could do it all on stones if he wanted, but he does use 2" belts and various buffing wheels also. But if you could get half as good on a stone as Matt you'd be well on your way. You can make your own stone wood bridge and use a Really Useful Box Storage Box, 17 Liter to support it and put the water and stones in.
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheSharpeningGuy/videos

 

[Ourorboros]

Naniwa Gouken and Naniwa Chosera are different lines of stone, I have a few of both.

There are a couple of Naniwa Gouken lines, to the best of my knowledge
The Gouken Arata is a thinner Chosera.
There is also the Gouken Kagayaki, which is harder than the Super Stone.
The Gouken Kurouto is a soaking stone that is softer than the Chosera.

I have a Naniwa Professional 1K & 3K from back when Mark had a sale years back. The Gouken Arata 10K is a dead ringer for the line in terms of feel.

 

[Spideyjg]

If you are proficient at hand sharpening on Arkies you are 95% there. A 1K and 6K should do you fine if you keep up on them and don't let them get too dull. Can't go wrong with the Shapton glass stones. Spray some water on it and off you go.

Lots of water stone makes but they all get to the same end result. feel speed, soak times, etc. take you down the rabbit hole.

 

[Ourorboros]

Lots of water stone makes but they all get to the same end result. feel speed, soak times, etc. take you down the rabbit hole.

That's what I keep in saying. Above a certain quality, say King, you can find a way to get to the same place. If you're not a pro I'm not sure how much it matters.
Although a nice feel and feedback are good to have.

 

[SVTFreak]

I really appreciate each and every one of your guys input. The goal here is to not go down that rabbit hole. I want to have a good experience cutting food with knives I like. Not learn a new trade lol! The sharp knife is important. How it gets there, beyond learning how to do it most effectively, not so much. At least now I have a starting game plan that is educated, thanks to you guys, and hopefully save me some money rather than running out buying stuff I’ve heard about but not knowing exactly where to go. Y’all been a huge help. Thanks.

 

[SVTFreak]

Now if I could just get my first knife in. The one I posted above went to a small post office about 150 miles west. I sure hope it makes it’s way back this way soon. The yoxcels I don’t think I’ll be getting until Christmas as gifts. Then I’ll fill in the empty holes after.