Sharpening: SS vs High Carbon

Lenny

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Oct 15, 1998
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I've heard this over and over again: "High Carbon steel is easier to sharpen than SS"
WHY??
Doesn't it really depend on edge geometry and Rockwell hardness?
I'm well aware that High Carbon discolors if not cleaned and dried after use.
But aren't most High Carbon blades clad with SS?
I'd like to buy a new Gyuto and am torn between several; some SS, some High Carbon.
High on my list of priorities is ease of sharpening.
Please give me your input.
Thanks,
Lenny
 
I've heard this over and over again: "High Carbon steel is easier to sharpen than SS"
WHY??
Doesn't it really depend on edge geometry and Rockwell hardness?
I'm well aware that High Carbon discolors if not cleaned and dried after use.
But aren't most High Carbon blades clad with SS?
I'd like to buy a new Gyuto and am torn between several; some SS, some High Carbon.
High on my list of priorities is ease of sharpening.
Please give me your input.
Thanks,
Lenny

These days, thanks to DMT, there's not a lot in it.
Although there are still a few SS blades out that take a bad edge and hold it for years.
 
I depends on the stainless. Many of the generally best stainless steels for blades have
enough carbon, chromium, etc. to form lots of carbides. The carbides, while brittle, are
much harder than the steel.

If you have a lot of small, evenly distributed carbides in the edge (really everywhere in
the blade, but only the edge matters) it will hold a sharp edge longer but be harder to
sharpen. Both effects are because the carbides are so hard.

If you have large (on a microscopic scale), unevenly distributed carbides in the edge
it will not only be hard to sharpen but the carbides may chip out of the edge, thus
making it hard to get a really sharp edge. We're still talking microscopic scale here,
but that's OK because a really sharp edge is around 1 micron across.

Ways to avoid large, unevenly distributed carbides:

1. Don't have enough carbon to create a lot of them in the first place. This includes
steels that really don't have enough carbon to make a good blade at all
that are commonly used in less expensive commercial knives. It also includes
steels such as AEB-L which strive to strike the right balance to create a good
hard matrix, good stain resistance but nothing more. Disclaimer: I'm experimenting
with it right now. Other makers who've used it say that it has similar sharpening
characteristics to carbon steels.

2. Particle metallurgy steels allow much more carbon and alloy content with smaller,
more evenly distributed carbides by premixing the steel and alloying elements
physically before melting. Examples include CPM-154CM and CPM-S35VN. I've
got some of the later profiled out for paring knives because I can't get AEB-L
in 1/16" thick stock. Both of the CPM steels I mention are very popular with
custom knife makers.
 
Dan,
You seem to be my go to man lately, thanks.
Seems like a lot of the low to mid priced Gyutos use laminates with VG-10 as the core.
Can you comment on this steel with respect to ease of sharpening/ edge holding?
Or should I just stick with a high C steel like the Blue steel you prefer?
Lenny
 
I'd say it's similar from reputation to other popular, but not super fine carbide
stainless steels. Don't want to go down a rat hole comparing steels I haven't
used extensively by name though. More depends on the exact heat treat than
the steel chemistry and it's basically impossible to separate those with a knife
you didn't make.

Sharpening it doesn't seems that much harder to me with an Edge-Pro and
its waterstones. Might be harder to put the initial edge on though but I haven't
had that problem yet.

As I explained in the other thread, the Shun VG-10 core knife I have requires
a wider edge angle to not chip out and still doesn't hold the edge as long as my
A2 and O1 blades.

IMHO, the main reason that you don't see custom makers use VG-10 in this
country is that it's just not available.
 
I've heard this over and over again: "High Carbon steel is easier to sharpen than SS"
- Dunno, I just find carbon steels in general are easier to sharpen than most stainless steels, but as Dan said it depends on the steel. Some stainless steels (AEB-L, G3, 19c27) supposedly are as easy to sharpen.

I'm well aware that High Carbon discolors if not cleaned and dried after use.
- You should also know that carbons are reactive to acid foods, and will do funny things to the food and dull the edge.

But aren't most High Carbon blades clad with SS?
- Depends on the knife, if anything it seems as though carbon blades are more often clad with carbon than stainless. FYI, some claddings use low-end carbon which are ubber reactive, rust magnets.

I'd like to buy a new Gyuto and am torn between several; some SS, some High Carbon.
- It boils down to whether or not you have enough OCD to handle carbon. Personally, I prefer stainless for chef’s knives, b/c they normally see a lot of acid food and are constantly in and out my hand. I don’t want to be concerned with wiping it every couple of minutes or leaving them unattended. Whereas my knives that see mostly protein are carbons.

Seems like a lot of the low to mid priced Gyutos use laminates with VG-10 as the core. Can you comment on this steel with respect to ease of sharpening/ edge holding?
- VG-10 was original designed for kitchen knives and is the common standard stainless steel used in (mid-high) Japanese knives. Like a Honda or Toyota, it doesn’t do anything really great or really bad, but simply provides a vg balance of traits. It’s stainless, easy to maintain, takes a vgood edge, and has more than enough edge retention for home use. It’s not difficult to sharpen, but can be tricky to deburr and some brands are chippier than others.


Or should I just stick with a high C steel like the Blue steel you prefer?
- See above.

BTW, which knives are you considering?
 
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I've heard this over and over again: "High Carbon steel is easier to sharpen than SS"
WHY??
Doesn't it really depend on edge geometry and Rockwell hardness?

Personally I think that although there might be truth to this statement, it really depends on too many variables for it to be considered a general truth. In my opinion an individual's sharpening skills and equipment have much more to do with the "ease" of sharpening than anything else.

Carbon steels are generally used on big "chopper" knives and are run at lower hardnesses--by and large they tend to roll rather than chip. Other times carbon steels are used in knife applications where thinness and slicing ability are the most desireable attributes--when run at HRC values of 62+ they can chip just as readily as other, less tough, stainless steels. In general, carbon steels are tougher and less likely to chip than stainless steels.

If you do a search of the forums you will find a lot of posts with people complaining that they can't get their ESEE (or insert other reputable, high quality knife manufacturer) sharp, despite the knife being made of carbon steel. In many cases, their sharpening skill is fairly rudimentary, and they aren't taking into account the obtuse bevels than are put on their knives. In some other cases you might run into posts with people talking about how easy their Spyderco (or insert other reputable, high quality knife manufacturer) is to sharpen despite being made out of a high quality stainless steel, yet once again this is their first time sharpening a knife with properly acute bevels for the angles that they are sharpening at.

Like parbajtor said, diamond stones seem to ignore the differences between steels--if you have trouble sharpening with your current system(s) you might want to take a look at giving diamond stones a try.

After all of that above, I will say that I have noticed a difference in ease of sharpenability between some steels. High alloy (especially vanadium) content steels seem to take longer to sharpen (e.g. they require more strokes on the stone to get the same effect) than lower alloy steels (which most carbon steels are). On the other hand, I've sharpened some stainless steels (like Buck's 420HC, and the 420J that some knife companies use) that seemed like hard plastic in comparison to higher end stainless steels.

Just because a steel is stainless doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a high carbon steel--in fact many of the high quality stainless steels have higher carbon contents than "high carbon" non-stainless steels. All "high carbon" means is that the steel has a greater than 0.50% carbon content. With traditional smelting techniques (which the great majority of carbon steels use) carbon content can't really go much above 1.50%. In comparison some of the really crazy high alloy steels (made with powder/particle metallurgy techniques) have contents 2-4 times higher than a "high carbon" low alloy carbon steel. ZDP-189, for example, has a 3.00% carbon content.
 
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i sharpen with the paper wheels and they will put a shaving sharp edge on any steel in minutes if it is capable of taking a good edge. i like carbon steel over stainless even though it does have its drawbacks like corrosion.
 
Hi Lenny,

http://japanwoodworker.com/product.a...&dept_id=13167
- I’ve no first hand experiences with them, but I’ve seen them on Amazon for ~$60 and believe the Evergood from Ebay for ~$50 are the same. The blade curvature appears to fit you rocking style requirement, but the geometry (ie taper, grind) and heat treatment is a wildcard. I’m leery of it b/c I’ve never seen a vg-10 blade being sold for so little money, or one come from anywhere outside of Japan, and it’s made in Taiwan…caveat emptor.

http://japanwoodworker.com/product.a...&dept_id=13167
- I’ve read very good things about them, except the f&f, handle are utilitarian. However, it’s a little short in length and a santoku.

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PR...n-Chefs-Knives
- Well…I think its’ a good fit and the best knife in its’ price class. However, you need to try it yourself. If you get from Sur la Table and don’t like, you can return it.

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PR...c-Chefs-Knives
- It’s a very popular knife, but I don’t like it. Imo, the miyabi does everything the shun does and does it better for less money.

OR, any knife that you can recommend for around $100
Are you ok with carbon steel?
What knives have you used before and what did you (dis)like about them?
 
Looker,
Great comments, thanks.
But your links don't work. :D
Glad you like the Miyabi, it's definitely the best looking of the bunch.
As for what I've used before, all I have is an old set of Hoffritz knives.
I had them reprofiled several years back to a more acute angle.
Just sharpened the Chef's knife on the Edge Pro and polished the edge.
Followed with a micro bevel on the Spyderco sharpmaker.
It slices newspaper like it isn't even there.
I'll have to see how it holds the edge.
This is actually the first time I've ever seriously sharpened this knife.
I don't like the handle too much.
It's a Western style and too small and blocky for my hands.
I'd really like to try a Wa handled Japanese knife.
The only question on the Miyabi is the VG-10 and the grind angle.
I'd like the knife to be as easy as possible to sharpen with the Edge Pro and Sharpmaker.
As for Carbon steel, I'd actually prefer it as it's probably easier to sharpen.
Keep the comments coming.
Lenny
 
The notion that carbon steel is easier to sharpen than stainless steel is so vague it can't even be addressed. You need to know which grades of each are being compared and how "carbon steel" is defined. Many people just label a steel that rusts relatively quickly as "carbon steel." If that is the case, you are including such things as A2, D2, M2, CPM10V, and a whole bunch of other stuff that can be a bear to sharpen. If you stick to the 10xx series of steels, then it may hold some truth, though it depends more on the grade of stainless and the skill of the sharpener and the tools used. If you are talking about 1095 and S30V, I'd have to agree. If it's 1095 and 12C27, you'd be hard pressed to find a difference. Here's a link to some more carbon vs. stainless discussion, at the risk of tooting my own horn.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/915364-2-Myths-About-Carbon-Steel
 
Sorry about the links, but they’re in the same order that you had.
If you have some time and SLT close by, check one out even as just a point of reference, to try a wa-handle, etc.
Irrc, Hoffritz used to sell a variety of different knives. If you got one of those older Sabatier, euro blades don’t write it off.
Congrats…but I’m confused about your ease of sharpening concerns. Doesn’t the Edge-Pro’ adjust to match the bevel angle on any knife and make sharpening anything a no-brainer?
The miyibi factory edge is sharpened at ~12° or 24° inclusive.
 
What's SLT?
I have no difficulty sharpening with the Edge Pro.
I meant that the other day was the first time I used the Edge Pro on the Chef's knife.
It works beautifully and is basically dumb proof like you said.
The knife is so thick, though, that I sharpened to about 36 degrees on the Edge Pro, then
finished with a micro bevel of 40 degrees on the Sharpmaker.
Not the optimum geometry for a kitchen knife.
To make the edge any more acute, I'd have to spend an entire day on it.
And I doubt my stones would last that long before they wore down to the aluminum
backing.
So, with thin edged kitchen knives, would I put a micro bevel on them with the Sharpmaker.
Or do I have to just go back to the Sharpmaker every time it gets dull?
Thanks again gents.
Lenny
 
What's SLT? SurLaTable

So, with thin edged kitchen knives, would I put a micro bevel on them with the Sharpmaker.
Or do I have to just go back to the Sharpmaker every time it gets dull?

I don't understanding your questions :confused:
 
ss VS hc is better than Giants vs Pats. IMHO, save your pennies, go to a member that makes knives for a living, show him pictures of what you want and have him make you a knife that needs to be sharpened every other year rather than every time you use it. is has been said over and over on this and other forums that most storebought knives are compromises with keeping the price of material and labor low(why else is schrade and camillus now made off-shore) and ease of mass production a higher priority than sharpness, finish, fit, feel and all the other things that make up a quality knife.
 
What's SLT? SurLaTable

So, with thin edged kitchen knives, would I put a micro bevel on them with the Sharpmaker.
Or do I have to just go back to the Sharpmaker every time it gets dull?

I don't understanding your questions :confused:


Looker,
I assume that new kitchen knives only come with a primary bevel, and not wiith a secondary bevel.
After use, the primary bevel rounds off a bit and I'll need to resharpen.
Now, I have 2 choices:
1. Use the Edge Pro to match the original primary bevel
2. Use my Sharpmaker to put a more obtuse secondary bevel on it
Your thoughts?
Lenny
 
I assume that new kitchen knives only come with a primary bevel, and not wiith a secondary bevel.
- Yes, I think most come with a single primary bevel.

After use, the primary bevel rounds off a bit and I'll need to resharpen…
- Afaik, the edge pros’ adjustability and broader range of stones should allow it to do everything the sharpmaker does…better, so I’d would use the edge pro.
Depending on how the existing edge performed…
If the edge did well, I would resharpen at the same angle, or lower to see if it works better.
If the edge failed, I would resharpen at the same angle and add microbevel or at a greater angle.
 
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