Sharpening Steels: Different Types, Different Uses

[JD Spydo]

Along with my growing collection of knives I've also fallen into a vast collection of Sharpening Steels too. I've yet to find a thread that answers some of the questions I have about the different types of sharpening steels. Because many people I've talked to here and on a couple of other forums feel like they are all pretty much the same with similar uses.

However I tend to differ with that conventional wisdom that most seem to accept. Because among my collection of Sharpening Steels I have many different variants, styles and sizes of Sharpening steels. Most of the Sharpening Steels I use are made by the Frederick Dick Co of Germany. On the culinary threads I've been on I've heard from very reliable sources that F. Dick Sharpening steels are the best in the industry.

Whether or not that is true I'm not completely sure but they do seem like high quality units to me. And they are the only sharpening steels that I've had consistent results with. But I want to pick your brains and I want to know about all the different variants of butcher steels/sharpening steels. Some of them are smooth, some have coarse ridges, some have micro ridges, I even have one that has furrows and grooves along with ridges>> and I still have not had anyone tell me what it's primary purpose is. So let's talk about Sharpening steels and what each one of them are good for.

 

[HeavyHanded]

This is my theory:

I view them as having two roles, and some of the fine grooved ones have crossover value. I admit to not really knowing what level of groove depth etc is the tipping point, I also suspect they are intended for a specific range of steels in terms of RC (high 40s low 50). That said, industrial usage of roller burnishing has verified good results well into the 60s RC, but that is not the same as working an edge into space.

The grooved ones work like a file. If used on a highly polished/use-glazed edge, they will skate at first just as a file does on smooth steel. Once it begins to catch it will remove steel just as a file would. On very dull knives I will start out with a fair amount of force and immediately lighten up once I feel it begin to catch. I find they do not remove the burr very well, so use of higher angle swipes etc will be necessary most of the time if a burr free edge is important. One can also use the "burr-less" method of sharpening and apply a microbevel the instant the edge begins to feel sticky. Intended primarily for culinary use, I don't believe a bit of burring is a problem for most operations.

The smooth ones work by microbevel plastic deformation, smearing the high points of a grind pattern into the low points and compressing the edge. This is particularly effective on low RC steel, as the bit of work hardening (speculation) improves edge retention. Once the edge no longer has any grind irregularities left, smooth steeling will tend to draw the edge out into a wire and it will have to be reset on a grooved steel or stone. This is why steeling an edge above 6k or so tends to produce little improvement, and steeling a highly polished edge will often result in immediate "burring" unless applied at a very acute angle.

As the RC and/or carbide content increase it becomes more important to use the smooth steel at an increasingly acute angle. Where on a 48 RC knife you might get away with 5° pitch, on a 58 RC knife the pitch needs to be closer to a single degree or two to avoid chipping/folding the edge or carbide tear out.

Even the smooth ones need some texture to work well, and this texture needs to run lengthwise the steel.

As for ones that are somewhere between, I suspect they are intended (maybe) to maintain a refined edge without drawing the edge out so readily. They also (speculation) will repair/ regrind folded stretches of edge at the same time they straighten them out, since use of a smooth steel for straightening will leave some of the damaged region behind.

In use I generally restrict them to Western cutlery and machetes, grass sickle, corn knife. I find I use them most often at other folks houses or when on vacation etc as many people will have no other sharpening means available, and nothing more difficult than relatively inexpensive kitchen knives to use them on. In a pinch I use the grooved steel and use the glazed rim of a bowl or cup as a smooth steel.

With a lot of care they can be used on a much larger selection of steel, but are very unforgiving of off-angle swipes.

Edit to add: here is a thread where I took a closer look at what was going on with a smooth steel - some day I'll go back and check out a grooved one as well.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...e-look-at-steeling?highlight=quick+close+look

 

[JD Spydo]

Hey thanks for the link "HeavyHanded" It's a subject that I hear so much conflicting information about that it's truly got me wanting to know what the intended purposes of all these different variations of sharpening steels. I was checking out the www.knifemerchant.com website that sells F. Dick sharpening steels along with some other brands. When I found my F. Dick "Multicut" model listed one chef had written a review on it stating that "The F. Dick "Multicut" steel is actually 7 steels in one He did not elaborate on why he made that statement nor did he back it up with any type of explanation. So all I can do is attempt to pick everyone's brain here at BF and hope to get lucky.

As far as your observation that many of the steels are intended to be used on blade steels with relatively low Rockwell Hardness ratings>> all I can say is that my M390 Spyderco Military I do believe is rated above 60 or so on that same scale but yet that F. Dick "Poliron" sharpening steel ( the smooth, super hard one) does indeed improve the edge of that bad boy noticeably. Whereas on the F. Dick "Multicut" steel I've had mixed results.

It's amazing but yet baffling to me that even when I talk to meat cutters and others in the food industry that actually use these tools I get about as many answers as I do the amount of people I talk to . And these are guys that supposedly make a living using these tools. I've also heard some of the so-called sharpening experts that have even written books say that all sharpening steels are antiquated, obsolete tools and they belong in museums >> if that's the case then why do companies like F. Dick and Victorinox and Russell that all make these tools still seem to sell a lot of them and to a market with a steady demand too. OK I'll give it rest and let someone else talk

 

[HeavyHanded]

It makes sense the M390 would show some benefit from the smooth one and not the grooved one so much. The smooth one is only burnishing, the grooved one actually has to cut some metal to work.

I've had good luck even on on D2 at 61-62 RC but again, that was at about a degree larger than the grind angle, otherwise I was getting carbide blow out.

These are still plenty popular because they're fast and hygienic, and work great on regular steels. They get a bad rap as they begin to stutter on all the high carbide steels that are becoming so popular for sport cutlery.

Smooth burnishing work on just about anything as long as care is exercised.

 

[JD Spydo]

It makes sense the M390 would show some benefit from the smooth one and not the grooved one so much. The smooth one is only burnishing, the grooved one actually has to cut some metal to work.

I've had good luck even on on D2 at 61-62 RC but again, that was at about a degree larger than the grind angle, otherwise I was getting carbide blow out.

These are still plenty popular because they're fast and hygienic, and work great on regular steels. They get a bad rap as they begin to stutter on all the high carbide steels that are becoming so popular for sport cutlery.

Smooth burnishing work on just about anything as long as care is exercised.

That's an extremely interesting point you bring up "HeavyHanded" because I've thought for some time that there could be great benefits from burnishing an edge in just the right way. And believe me I'm not disagreeing with you at all because everything you said about most sharpening steels being geared for softer blade steels really adds up. But these F. Dick blade steels I have seem to be a lot harder than any other sharpening steel I've come across. Especially that "Poliron" model ( the hard/smooth unit) because when you run your plain edge across it you feel like your running wet ice over wet ice. That's about the only way I can describe it. It doesn't really feel like you're doing anything beneficial to the edge at all but when you start doing sharpness tests on the blade the difference is remarkable to say the least.

I also have a couple of what looks like sharpening steels but these are made from ceramic>> I'm speaking of the Lansky "Crock Stick" rods I have. They don't feel very abrasive when you run a plain edge over them but they do a decent job of fine tuning an already relatively sharp edge. I'm really surprised that one of the guys here at BF who is a chef or a meat cutter or anyone who works in the culinary field hasn't chimed in >> because I bet some of those guys who actually work with these types of tools could lend us some good advice.

 

[Mike DeAmicis]

JD, this is a really good conversation you have started. I hope it goes somewhere. About the ceramic rods you mentioned. Now I am am very lacking in sharpening skill. But I see things from a mechanical point of view. I have read a little bit about rods and here is my take. They are really good for knives with recurve are any blade with varied geometry. You know because it's really hard to use a flat surface to shape curves. And that a diamond rod is for repair and a ceramic rod is for getting that really sharp edge. But then you have very fine diamond rods and really coarse ceramic rods so maybe it's just a way to get us consumers to bur more products? I know diamond and ceramic both perform well for repair and touch up or refining the edge given the proper grain.

Anyway, this question resonates with things that I also want to know more about since sharp knives are so much better and working to hard for a mediocre edge is just not fun.

 

[JD Spydo]

JD, this is a really good conversation you have started. I hope it goes somewhere. About the ceramic rods you mentioned. Now I am am very lacking in sharpening skill. But I see things from a mechanical point of view. I have read a little bit about rods and here is my take. They are really good for knives with recurve are any blade with varied geometry. You know because it's really hard to use a flat surface to shape curves. And that a diamond rod is for repair and a ceramic rod is for getting that really sharp edge. But then you have very fine diamond rods and really coarse ceramic rods so maybe it's just a way to get us consumers to bur more products?

You point out some interesting sidebars "Mike" You make mention of the sharpening rods made from diamond and ceramic. And in the last 10 years or so the market has literally gotten flooded with both types of sharpening rods ( diamond & ceramic). However maybe 10% to 15% of the ones out there for sale are of any substantial quality>> but we here on BF have the luxury of gathering information so we can avoid the Rip-Mart, bargain hunter specials

You're spot on in your observation of the sharpening tools you need for recurve blades and other non-conventional blade styles. With the really good quality sharpening rods that are available to us it's now a lot easier to obtain razor sharp edges on such blade designs. One thing that really stands out to me with all the newer ceramic and diamond sharpening rods is that they got their concept from the older, original butcher steels and/or sharpening steels. Which tells us that they identify with older, established sharpening tools, which can be a good thing.

They have really made huge strides in the development of abrasive ceramics and have discovered that monocrystalline diamonds are optimal for sharpening tools. And combined with the concept of the older, original sharpening steels has given us a plethora of good sharpening tools we didn't have access to in the past. With all that being said I'm now wondering what improvements that they will make with the original sharpening steels that this thread is focusing on? Frederich Dick of Germany, the manufacturer that made my favorite sharpening steels now has some diamond steels in their line up. I think they also have some ceramic models as well. And my ultimate hope is that they keep up with the new supersteels and provide us with sharpening steels that can accommodate the newer/better blade steels that we've been blessed with in the past 8 to 10 years. With blade steels getting harder to sharpen I think it's imperative that we have sharpening tools that can do the job and do it well.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The largest factor with steels, in addition to them needing to be properly shaped, is that they must be sufficiently hard, and the greater the difference in hardness between the steel and the blade, the better the steel will function. Grooved ones really are basically like a very fine file with the teeth running across the width rather than along the length. The overwhelming majority of steels on the market, just like files, are garbage, with poorly shaped grooves and soft steel. It should then be little surprise that F. Dick, which was originally founded as a file manufacturer back in 1778, is good at making them. They know how to shape and cut them correctly, and use high quality steel with a very hard heat treatment.

 

[Mike DeAmicis]

the market has literally gotten flooded with both types of sharpening rods ( diamond & ceramic). However maybe 10% to 15% of the ones out there for sale are of any substantial quality.

Yea. And guys like me think I can by a ten dollar pocket rod and handle all of my sharpening tasks.

And my ultimate hope is that they keep up with the new supersteels and provide us with sharpening steels that can accommodate the newer/better blade steels that we've been blessed with in the past 8 to 10 years. With blade steels getting harder to sharpen I think it's imperative that we have sharpening tools that can do the job and do it well.

This! I am constantly frustrated by industries that try to drive demand and give us what they want us to want. I know the dynamic advances in pretty much everything makes it hard to keep up. And it's got a lot to do with a generally apathetic and uninformed consumer base that also cannot keep up. But I wish more companies would embrace the ever excelerating innovation to keep giving us the best that could be had with economics of scale to keep things within reach of normal people. Case in point is my fairly rescent discovery of kershaw working with high end knife makers to give us a variety of well designed knives with some really good steel that were out of reach for a guy like me. Until 2 years ago when I bought my ZT 0303 the most I had ever spent on a knife was a Benchmade auto I picked up in the Arab Emirates in the 2003. And those are my two most expensive knives. It takes a lot to get me to break the thirty dollar barrier on a knife and a hundred bucks is pretty unheard of for me. But that's because I (a) beat the crap out of pretty much everything and would rather destroy a Walmart disposable than a piece of art at immensely greater expense. And (b) I'm prone to losing or misplacing my stuff.

This has taken considerable effort on my part to improve upon. Amd the last few years I have stumbled upon places like this plum full of information. And I gobble information like cotton candy. Learning about various steel properties and proper heat treats and tempers has enlightened me to the benifits of paying for a blade capable of of putting up with my abuse.

This enlightenment instills confidence in me in that I can affordably atain a good field knife to venture into the wilderness and not work about it braking or losing its edge in a hurry. But the cost is not knowing how to maintain these awsome knives. Fortunately, I gobble information and I have you guys to feed the hunger.

I'm sorry for such a long sidebar. I hope I'm not over stepping. Back to the subject. Maybe there is a superior sharpening rod that one can use on any steel to put a good working edge on any knife?

 

[sodak]

The best luck that I've had is with the folding steel that Juranitch sells, because it has angles that are easy to be consistent with and it's also easy to hold the knife loosely. Speaking only for myself, I have to be **extremely** careful to have a **very** light touch or else I completely screw the job up.

For any Bob Ross fans out there (The Joy of Painting), I repeat his "light touch" mantra while using a steel. "Two hairs and some air".

 

[bodog]

have discovered that monocrystalline diamonds are optimal for sharpening tools.

I don't believe that's the case. Sometimes it's the best for some applications but not the best for others.

Can you cite researchers and industry leaders saying specifically that monocrystalline diamonds alone are optimal for sharpening tools? Marketing statements don't count unless there's some real meat in there.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I do not believe the high Rockwell and high carbide steels will respond well to 'steeling'.

I do believe that there will always be applications where the super steels will not be desirable and so there will always be a place for grooved and smooth steels. My personal opinion is - if a file could be used to sharpen something, a grooved steel could be used to make a finer edge.

The smooth steel or lightly textured steel will always have a place until the carbide content becomes so high that essentially no burnishing is possible.

I imagine the newest honing steels are probably made from some premium grades of stainless, and I've also come across some that have been plated. Maybe a honing steel with a vanadium carbide coating is a possibility. Forum member Stitchawl has reported good effect on high alloy/RC steels using borosilicate glass rods (cheaply available at chemistry supply houses).

It would be interesting to see what an F Dick steel looks like under high magnification.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I do not believe the high Rockwell and high carbide steels will respond well to 'steeling'.

I do believe that there will always be applications where the super steels will not be desirable and so there will always be a place for grooved and smooth steels. My personal opinion is - if a file could be used to sharpen something, a grooved steel could be used to make a finer edge.

The smooth steel or lightly textured steel will always have a place until the carbide content becomes so high that essentially no burnishing is possible.

I imagine the newest honing steels are probably made from some premium grades of stainless, and I've also come across some that have been plated. Maybe a honing steel with a vanadium carbide coating is a possibility. Forum member Stitchawl has reported good effect on high alloy/RC steels using borosilicate glass rods (cheaply available at chemistry supply houses).

It would be interesting to see what an F Dick steel looks like under high magnification.

Might have good luck on high RC knives using their Titan model. It claims to have an ultra-hard special coating (possibly DLC?)

I mostly agree that high-carbide steels will probably not respond well to steeling, but mostly attribute that to grain size and hardness relative to the steel. Very fine-grained carbide-containing steels would probably respond just fine to the method so long as the steel (tool) being used was harder than the blade by a large enough margin. Folks like CarBee Sharp have solid carbide scrapers that have a grooved steel-like surface and it makes me wonder if a full-blown traditional butcher's steel shape could be made in a similar manner.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Might have good luck on high RC knives using their Titan model. It claims to have an ultra-hard special coating (possibly DLC?)

I mostly agree that high-carbide steels will probably not respond well to steeling, but mostly attribute that to grain size and hardness relative to the steel. Very fine-grained carbide-containing steels would probably respond just fine to the method so long as the steel (tool) being used was harder than the blade by a large enough margin. Folks like CarBee Sharp have solid carbide scrapers that have a grooved steel-like surface and it makes me wonder if a full-blown traditional butcher's steel shape could be made in a similar manner.

I think at some point (admittedly haven't done the legwork to do more than speculate) the carbide content gets so high it does what it is meant to do when these steels are used industrially - prevent surface wear. That would include burnishing to a large extent. Lateral loading on high carbide steel is also a likely trouble spot as the carbides will want to fall out as the steel is shifted.

I think once you get into using fairly exotic materials to tackle the tougher steels, you're bending over backward to make a specific method work in a situation where it might not be a good fit. It would be interesting to see the differences in tooling across a range of steel and grind methods - is there an advantage other than hygiene and convenience to using a grooved steel or might you just as well switch to a diamond coated one or a stone?

I picked up a grooved ceramic steel for the mother in law a while back, and used it myself on some of her cutlery - it didn't work very well.

I feel in most cases Juranitch formula is a good one relative to this topic - a stone to apply some texture and a clean apex and smooth steel to refine the edge. That said, I do not believe there is a better combination of tools for lower RC kitchen cutlery than a grooved and smooth steel combo - fast and simple.

 

[JD Spydo]

I don't believe that's the case. Sometimes it's the best for some applications but not the best for others.

Can you cite researchers and industry leaders saying specifically that monocrystalline diamonds alone are optimal for sharpening tools? Marketing statements don't count unless there's some real meat in there.

I freely admit that I'm not expert on diamonds and/or the wide field of abrasives for that matter. But I was told quite some time ago by an expert who worked for the 3M company at the time I chatted with him and he declared that the "monocrystalline diamonds after much testing in their laboratory proved to be the best for use as an abrasive for sharpening all kinds of metals. So I'm just going on what he said and he had a job as an engineer for the 3M company at the time. I do own a couple of 3M's diamond benchstones and I've had very good results with them so I do know that the benchstones that 3M makes are high quality.

Actually I'm pretty sure that all of my diamond stones ( Norton, 3M, DMT ect) are "monocrystalline to the best of my knowledge. But being that diamond is supposedly the hardest material/mineral known to science I have no doubt that other types of diamonds would also have great properties for all types of abrasive applications. Again I'm not an expert, geologist, gemologist or any type of an engineer for that matter. But to me the proof has always been in the results and I've always had great results with the diamond benchstones I currently own and use that are made with monocrystalline diamonds. But hey!! I'm all ears and I'm always open to learn something I didn't know before.

 

[JD Spydo]

The best luck that I've had is with the folding steel that Juranitch sells, because it has angles that are easy to be consistent with and it's also easy to hold the knife loosely. Speaking only for myself, I have to be **extremely** careful to have a **very** light touch or else I completely screw the job up.

For any Bob Ross fans out there (The Joy of Painting), I repeat his "light touch" mantra while using a steel. "Two hairs and some air".

First of all I have a ton of respect for John Juranitch of Razor Edge Systems. It was his book that he wrote entitled "The Razor Edge Book Of Sharpening" that gave me a great basic understanding of the skill of sharpening. And I've taken his advice for the most part and I focus most of the work I do with my F. Dick sharpening steels to mainly their Poliron model which is a hard, smooth steel that mainly burnishes and aligns edges. I do believe that Juranitch is on to something with smooth steels.

I own several sharpening tools made by Razor Edge Systems as well and I think a lot of their stuff is great quality and it works well. I do own one of their smooth steels but I've found my F. Dick smooth steel to work better than the one he sells.

I also believe that there is an art/skill to steeling a blade and most of the meat cutters and people in the food trades I've found don't really do it right IMO.

 

[Alberta Ed]

I've found that steels work best on low alloy high carbon and stainless blades. I use an oval "tri- burnisher" about 8" long, originally designed to form hooks or sharp edges on cabinet scrapers, but at RC 58-60 it works great as a steel. I generally use the European technique of pulling the blade across the steel at a 90 degree angle (holding the steel pointed away from yourself), rather than whisking it up and down the blade; this allows better control of the angle. A valve stem from a car or truck also makes an excellent steel.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I think at some point (admittedly haven't done the legwork to do more than speculate) the carbide content gets so high it does what it is meant to do when these steels are used industrially - prevent surface wear. That would include burnishing to a large extent. Lateral loading on high carbide steel is also a likely trouble spot as the carbides will want to fall out as the steel is shifted.

I think once you get into using fairly exotic materials to tackle the tougher steels, you're bending over backward to make a specific method work in a situation where it might not be a good fit. It would be interesting to see the differences in tooling across a range of steel and grind methods - is there an advantage other than hygiene and convenience to using a grooved steel or might you just as well switch to a diamond coated one or a stone?

I picked up a grooved ceramic steel for the mother in law a while back, and used it myself on some of her cutlery - it didn't work very well.

I feel in most cases Juranitch formula is a good one relative to this topic - a stone to apply some texture and a clean apex and smooth steel to refine the edge. That said, I do not believe there is a better combination of tools for lower RC kitchen cutlery than a grooved and smooth steel combo - fast and simple.

Carbides improve wear resistance, not necessarily resistance to plastic deformation--that comes from the hardness. Imagine it like a bunch of rocks in silly putty. The rocks would greatly increase resistance to abrasive wear, but the material in total would still be extremely ductile, albeit less so than just 100% putty. If you substituted the rocks for an equal mass of sand, the material would maintain much much more of its ductility. So, too, is this the case with carbides, though to a less severe extent.

 

[JD Spydo]

Might have good luck on high RC knives using their Titan model. It claims to have an ultra-hard special coating (possibly DLC?)

I mostly agree that high-carbide steels will probably not respond well to steeling, but mostly attribute that to grain size and hardness relative to the steel. Very fine-grained carbide-containing steels would probably respond just fine to the method so long as the steel (tool) being used was harder than the blade by a large enough margin. Folks like CarBee Sharp have solid carbide scrapers that have a grooved steel-like surface and it makes me wonder if a full-blown traditional butcher's steel shape could be made in a similar manner.

I seen that F. Dick TITAN model on their website the other day>> I was wondering what type of steel it was because I have never seen it previously. Albeit the F. Dick "Poliron" smooth/hard steel that I mostly use is an extremely hard/slick, oval shaped steel that I've used on all kinds of plain edged blades and on a wide range of different blade steels with good to moderate success. The Poliron seems to really work good on VG-10 for instance. If that Titan is harder and better than the Poliron model I would like to test one out at some point.

Also I've been wondering what type of sharpening steel you could use on a serrated edge or if a serrated edge is even anything you could enhance beyond what you can do sharpening it. I mostly sharpen and use Spyderco's serrated edged blades and I was wondering if F. Dick or any other company that makes sharpening steels had anything that would help serrated edges?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I freely admit that I'm not expert on diamonds and/or the wide field of abrasives for that matter. But I was told quite some time ago by an expert who worked for the 3M company at the time I chatted with him and he declared that the "monocrystalline diamonds after much testing in their laboratory proved to be the best for use as an abrasive for sharpening all kinds of metals. So I'm just going on what he said and he had a job as an engineer for the 3M company at the time. I do own a couple of 3M's diamond benchstones and I've had very good results with them so I do know that the benchstones that 3M makes are high quality.

Actually I'm pretty sure that all of my diamond stones ( Norton, 3M, DMT ect) are "monocrystalline to the best of my knowledge. But being that diamond is supposedly the hardest material/mineral known to science I have no doubt that other types of diamonds would also have great properties for all types of abrasive applications. Again I'm not an expert, geologist, gemologist or any type of an engineer for that matter. But to me the proof has always been in the results and I've always had great results with the diamond benchstones I currently own and use that are made with monocrystalline diamonds. But hey!! I'm all ears and I'm always open to learn something I didn't know before.

After comparing DMT's hones (monocrystalline) vs EZE-Lap's (polycrystalline), my own perception is that the polycrystalline, IF it's from a reputable maker, can do quite well. Comparing those two only, I've found the poly to be fast-grinding and maybe(?) better suited to initial profiling/bevel-setting. BUT, I've always (always, always) preferred the FINISHING abilities of DMT's monocrystaline diamond. They've consistently impressed me with consistency of finish and cleanliness, i.e., minimal burring, of finished edges, at any finish from Coarse (45µ) through EEF (3µ) at least. No matter what I've used to set the bevels and hog metal away, I've always preferred to do the finishing touches on a DMT hone.

That being said, I can still live comfortably with the finished edges coming off the EZE-Lap polycrystalline hones, if need be.


David