Recommendation? Sharpening system around DMT DiaSharp Fine

T

thatsacut

Joined
Apr 25, 2020
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Hi, all, new to the forum and knife collecting/sharpening in general, but have been obsessively reading a lot lately.

the TL;DR is I have a DMT DiaSharp Fine, and I'd like recommendations for a good sharpening stone or strop, that hopefully won't break the bank, to complement it.

Back story: I bought a two sided stone from Ace Hardware on a whim. Tried sharpening with it and felt it was not doing what I needed. It seemed coarse, so I did some research and it's rated at something like 60/80 grit supposedly. I may not know what I'm doing (although I was a Boy Scout many years ago!), but to me, it seems like it just scratches the hell out of the blade and doesn't get them very sharp at all. I watched some videos, got convinced DMT diamond sharpeners were where it's at, and bought a DMT DiaSharp Fine 8x3" bench stone. Then continued researching and saw everyone really likes stropping. So now I'm wondering if I need a strop or a finer stone to compliment the DMT. It looks like stropping compounds are all over the place. And I'm starting to think the DMT "Fine" is more like other people's "Coarse" because the site says it's like 600 mesh?? I'm a bit confused over mesh vs grit vs microns vs Japanese grit vs US grit.

The system I need would be for sharpening everything from camp knives to pocket knives to kitchen knives. Eventually, I'll probably pick up some field sharpeners, but right now, mainly looking at sharpening at home.

Knives I currently own:
  • Shun Santoku kitchen knife (VG10)
  • several Wushtof kitchen knives (X50CRMOV15)
  • two Mora Campanions (one is carbon steel, the other is Sandvik stainless)
  • Klecker Abiqua (7CR17MOV)
  • Fiskars Bush Axe (not sure what steel, it's coated, so some sort of carbon)
  • Machete (1095)
  • Vintage Axe (not sure what steel, but will rust)
  • Hatchet (not sure what steel, but will rust)
  • Leatherman Skeletool (420HC)
  • Shitty Chinese pocket knife
I've only recently been getting interested in knives and steel, but find it fascinating and will eventually get some knives in some harder steels.

My thoughts currently are to get a double sided strop with 1 micron and .5 micron compound of some sort (bar, spray, tube?). I'd like to get a compound that is reputable and that I can get again later if it runs out. American made would be great, but not necessary. I already spent like $50 on the DMT stone (which was maybe stupid?), so keeping the price down would be great. Does this sound good? Or should I just get a DMT Extra-Fine and be done?

Looking forward to wiser thoughts on the matter!
Thanks
 
DMTs are top quality IMHO, I've used them for 30+ years and never worn one out - $50 over 30 years works out pretty cheap:D. I currently use a DiaSharp Extra Coarse (220 grit) 3 x 10" for re-profiling an edge, and the double-sided (red/600 grit; green 1200 grit) 3 x 10" one for routine sharpening. (The double-sided red/green Diafold DMTs are great for field sharpening.) As for stropping, I find I get a crisper edge without stropping. I used to use chromium oxide (the kind that looks like a big green crayon) on a wood-backed strop but it doesn't seem to have much effect, particularly on high carbide super steels. I find a very light steeling pops back the edge more effectively. Old time straight razors were usually quite soft, around 45 HRC, so maybe they responded better to stropping. Today's cutlery steels are quite a bit harder, 55 HRC up.
 
Welcome. And thank you for giving good background. Lots of folks don't do that and it takes time to get an understanding of where they are at.

The very first thing I would recommend is to read some of the stickies at the top of this page. So many folks new to this hobby have a misconception that they can buy their way into sharp knives. You can't. Well, at least not starting out. I don't say that to be mean spirited, it's natural and common.

What you need are a few basic tools and then a real understanding of what is happening and what you're trying to achieve when you put the knife to the stone. If you're scratching your blades up on that extra course stone, my guess is you have it laid too far back.

So, before you buy anything else or try to sharpen anything, start with education.

Here's a good video on burrs a.k.a. wire edges:

Dean O has other very good videos that explain sharpening. I don't necessarily subscribe to all his methods but he does a really good job of breaking things down without getting into crazy realms.

I kind of have some basic rules:

1. You need the right tools.
- For what you listed, you don't need anything fancy. For now, leave the axes out. A Notron Crystolon JB8 would work well for setting your apexes. The Shun will likely be more brittle but it should respond here. Then a bottle of laxative grade mineral oil from the grocery store and a permanent marker (I like red). The marker is used to color the edge bevel so you can actually see what you're doing. With most of those steels, you can strop on some paper wrapped around the stone or some denim or the rough side of an old belt laid flat. You don't need much.

2. You need to understand what you're doing.
- You could have a huge arsenal of sharpening gear from free hand to systems but if you don't understand the fundamentals it's all worthless. The three key things you need to understand are the apex, burr formation, and de-burring or burr removal. That is it. Everything else is nuance, specialization, etc. If you don't understand those three things then there is no point moving on. So do your research on them and spend your time practicing these things.

3. Course is sharp.
- Now, I'm not saying you want to chase a sharp edge on a 60 grit stone (in fact they can weaken the edge) but for sure you should be sharp off a 220 or 300 grit stone. If you don't achieve the previous three things off a course stone there is no point moving up. A very common misconception is that higher grits are the path to sharpness. They are path to a refined keen edge but only if you have a sharp edge off a courser stone first.

4. Be honest with yourself.
- Don't kid yourself or try to convince yourself you have a sharp edge when you don't. This too is natural and often part of the learning curve. This will just lead to more frustration. Get your edge right. The marker will help a lot here. Don't compromise. Work the stubborn spots. Know when you're flustered and walk away. It's okay. We all go through it. After 40 odd years of sharpening I still sometimes have just put things down and come back some other time. Sometimes things just click. No need to force it.

Then there's the generals like, don't use a ton of pressure. Yeah, different stone types like different pressure but when starting out, I believe less is more. You can increase it a little as you go and a learn. Just a solid, but natural and relaxed touch will get you there.

I know you can do axes on bench stones but they are different than knives. That's the world @DeadboxHero , @HeavyHanded , and @FortyTwoBlades .
 
Oh, mesh, micron, grit, etc...

Mesh. This is talking about a sieve or a screen that the abrasives are passed through. If you look at a window screen, those squares of crossed wire are a mesh. The open space of that square has a measurement. The tighter the square the higher the mesh rating. This is essentially telling you what sized micron particle can pass through the square. Now, the mesh rating does not directly correlate to the microns so you have look at a chart if you really want to know but a 400mesh screen will allow something like a 30 or 35 micron sized particle to pass through it. I use them at work but don't remember the exact numbers. Basically, the higher the mesh rating, the finer the abrasives particles and ultimately the finer the stone.

Micron. Just a unit of metric measure. There are 1000 microns in a millimeter. Here, the smaller the number the finer. Again, they are talking about the average size of the individual abrasive particles of the stone.

Grit. This is an abrasive rating. I'm not entirely sure how they determine it but it's essentially a method categorizing the abrasiveness. Yes, the Japanese and ANSI systems are different and even within them there is variation. Grit, albeit very common, I think is probably the loosest real measurement.

All that said, you don't care too much. Stick to grit ratings.
 
A Alberta Ed thanks for your response. Now I’ve come full circle. Everything I read at first was all about stones, and then stropping started coming up and everything was about people liking stropping better for the finer stages, and now you are perfectly fine without strops. It makes me realize how much subjectivity there is. I wonder if you’d find the diamond pastes better for the super steels.

Eli Chaps Eli Chaps , thank you for your thought out responses. I’m going to watch the videos you posted and check out the 7 secrets of sharpening sticky, but wanted to quickly respond and say I may have slightly misrepresented my ability to get a sharp edge. Currently, I’ve been able to get it sharp enough to slice paper “somewhat”. It will cut a nice slice, and then maybe the second slice won’t start, so I’ll try again, and it‘ll rip the paper, but I’ll try a fourth time and it’ll do a nice smooth slice. But I’m not able to get an edge that slices paper in that satisfying way you see youtubers just shaving slice after slice after thin little sliver. And I’m definitely not getting arm hair shaving. And I wasn’t able to get my test knife as sharp as my Shun came out of the box.

I’m not experienced enough to know how sharp I should be able to get my knife with the DMT Fine, and at what level I should step up (or even down) to something else, whether strop or a finer stone.

My sharpness goal is 1) to be able to get my knives as sharp, or sharper, than my Shun came out of the box (can slice a tomato with just the weight of the blade). Preferably with a presentable edge. I don’t need a mirror polish, but something that doesn’t look like a 3 year old scribble drawing would be nice. 2) be able to maintain the edges without taking off too much metal each time they need a little cleanup.

Right now, I’m not too concerned about re-profiling.

I definitely need to practice more, but I feel like holding the knife angle consistently comes fairly naturally to me. I like the idea of using the sharpie to really make sure I’m at the right angle. The scratching on my test blade was not on the flat of the blade, it was (mostly) on the edge, it just was not pretty at all, and I think my wife would kill me if that was the look I ended up with on the kitchen knives.

RE: Mesh vs Grit, if the DMT fine is 600 mesh, is that in the same ballpark as 600 grit? Or are mesh rating numbers not related at all? I ask just because some items only list one or the other. It sounds like mesh is more accurate, but if something only has a grit rating, I’m curious how it compares (with the understanding that I have to take grit ratings with a “grain” of salt).

David Martin David Martin I’m feeling like the Ace stone is good for certain things and am not ready to part with it just yet. I was thinking it might be great for my axes and lawn mower blade. If you’re interested, it was only $9. I don’t think I’m allowed to post a link, but it’s listed on their website as as “Ace 6 in. L Silicon Carbide Sharpening Stone 60/80 Grit 1 pc.”

honestly, I can’t really tell which side is the 60 and which is the 80. The side I thought was the 60 is very hard and stone like, but feels a little smoother when I run the blade over it. The other side feels more “grindy” like sand, but seems like it’s softer and would wear away faster. I might be imagining that, maybe if feels more grindy because it grinds away more metal off the blade. I wish they would label the sides, though. That would have been useful.

I used the stone to flatten out the spine of my carbon steel Mora for striking fire steels. What I think of as the soft side seemed to do better for that, so maybe it is really the 60.
 
I tried the sharpie experiment this morning. I Think I did pretty good, except for down near the handle. This blade is a little misleading be
bcause the cutting edge doesn’t start until a 1/4” after the grind looks like it starts, but I’d say I’m having trouble hitting the first inch or so of the edge, even though it “feels” right. I’ll have to work on that more. Everything else looks OK, I think?

let’s see if I can post pics....
QgEtciv.jpg

KIqx4UI.jpg


Interestingly, I had much more trouble getting the angle right on my pocket knife, which is only 1 3/4” once you get past the serrations, but eventually got it after a few tries.

No burr developed sharpening either of these knives. Not sure if that means I need a coarser stone, or need to just stay on one side for a longer time until the bud develops, and then flip it to remove the burr? That seems like it would make the grind uneven, though.
 
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Lots of great advice in this thread from some very knowledgeable folks!

Welcome to the rabbit hole of knives and knife sharpening. It’s a long winding road but the ride is so much fun.
 
Flogger said:
Lots of great advice in this thread from some very knowledgeable folks!

Welcome to the rabbit hole of knives and knife sharpening. It’s a long winding road but the ride is so much fun.
Click to expand...

You may have to replace a lower control arm or two from potholes along the way. Just saying...:p
 
Flogger Flogger and Blues Blues - glad to be here, it feels like a very welcoming and mature community, which is a rare find on the internet!

Eli Chaps Eli Chaps - I updated my post above with Imgur images instead of links. Thanks for the tip.

UPDATE:
At first I succeeded in dulling my knife a bit, but after watching the burr video Eli Chaps Eli Chaps posted above, and reading/watching the first half of the 7 secrets to sharpening post, I’ve gotten a good burr with a version of the Japanese method, and then got the knife back to decent sharp, but not paper-shredder sharp.

I’m curious what you all think if the Sharpal 162N diamond stone? It’s the same size as my DMT Fine, and has a corse 45 micron side for if I ever need to re-profile, and the other side is an extra fine 9 micron side, which I’m thinking would be a good setup down from the DMT Fine, which I believe is 25 micron? All the other two-sides stones I’ve seen are corse/fine or fine/extra fine, which seem redundant when I already have a nice (and expensive) fine stone.

That said, I want to be ready, but I also don’t want to get ahead of myself if I shouldn’t be going to a finer grit yet. How sharp should sharp be when coming off a 600 mesh/25 micron/fine stone?

Now off to finish reading/watching the 7 secrets!
 
thatsacut, in my experience a thin edge is as important as a sharp edge for a knife to perform as well as possible. For this reason I don't bother with following or maintaining factory edge grinds. Often they, and the area behind them, are too thick for maximum performance. I thin this out as much as possible, making sure the edge doesn't roll or chip for what I want the knife to do. John Juranitch, in his excellent book The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening, calls this relief grinding. Getting a good relief grind is the most important part of sharpening for me. Finishing with finer grits is quick and easy as I like coarse, toothy, working edges. Some people prefer smooth, polished, refined edges, which take more time.

I tried diamond and silicon carbide stones around 120 grit for quick metal removal. I like and use this grit but wasn't happy with it for that purpose. I thought coarse diamond plates would hog off metal quickly but they are only supposed to be used with light pressure. I now use the 60 grit Baryonyx Manticore for reprofiling and usually as my starting sharpening stone. This stone can be used with heavier pressure and I highly recommend it for fast metal removal.
 
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thatsacut said:
Flogger Flogger and Blues Blues - glad to be here, it feels like a very welcoming and mature community, which is a rare find on the internet!

Eli Chaps Eli Chaps - I updated my post above with Imgur images instead of links. Thanks for the tip.

UPDATE:
At first I succeeded in dulling my knife a bit, but after watching the burr video Eli Chaps Eli Chaps posted above, and reading/watching the first half of the 7 secrets to sharpening post, I’ve gotten a good burr with a version of the Japanese method, and then got the knife back to decent sharp, but not paper-shredder sharp.

I’m curious what you all think if the Sharpal 162N diamond stone? It’s the same size as my DMT Fine, and has a corse 45 micron side for if I ever need to re-profile, and the other side is an extra fine 9 micron side, which I’m thinking would be a good setup down from the DMT Fine, which I believe is 25 micron? All the other two-sides stones I’ve seen are corse/fine or fine/extra fine, which seem redundant when I already have a nice (and expensive) fine stone.

That said, I want to be ready, but I also don’t want to get ahead of myself if I shouldn’t be going to a finer grit yet. How sharp should sharp be when coming off a 600 mesh/25 micron/fine stone?

Now off to finish reading/watching the 7 secrets!
Click to expand...

I have 2 sharpal stones, the 2x6 and 3x8 coarse/fine. They work great, and also have a dmt fine and a spyderco medium ceramic. I find the coarse removes metal rather quickly and the extra fine leaves a nice edge. I prefer the edge the medium spyderco makes, but it's a good system I think. I've reprofiled 3 knives so far, 2 in 20cv and one in s30, and it works well, but I can see a place for a coarser stone for quicker metal removal. I really like the aggressive edge coming off the coarse stone, but have been experimenting with more refined edges lately. Refined, but still toothy!

I do also have a Norton crystolon coarse/fine that I can use to really hog off metal as well. Cheap and works like a charm!
 
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