Sharpening - tool vs sharpness

[T Abell]

I've read the chart on the sticky about the different sharpness levels. And it got me wondering something.

There seems to be different levels of sharpness:

Thumbnail test
Cuts paper
Cut's a receipt
Shave you
Cuts hairs on your arm

And there are also different tools (or stages) for old-school sharpening:

Coarse stone
Fine Stone
Steel
Stropping

My question is - is there conventional wisdom as far as knowing which stage will get a knife to a particular level? Will the steel get one to shaving sharpness?

I guess what I really want to know is working backwards - if a knife will cut printer paper but won't shave, and I want it to shave, which method should I use? Is there conventional wisdom/tribal knowledge on that?

I have a few I've worked on over the weekend and they will slice paper and will sorta shave. But I don't know if they need more work on the stone, the steel, or to be stropped.

Thanks.

 

[Blues]

Think of the steel, (at least in the case of a smooth steel), as realigning an edge. This is not sharpening per se. It may work temporarily but will also, after a few times or less, weaken the edge.

What I generally do with a knife that was recently sharp and is losing its "bite", is use a very fine diamond hone, very lightly to restore the edge. In other words, the least aggressive method is used first. If the bite is restored, I call it good and move on.

On the other hand, if a full sharpening is called for, then I'd work from coarser to finer depending on the edge desired.

You can achieve your shaving edge with a coarse hone, a fine hone, and if the edge is only rolled slightly, a smooth steel (assuming it was already sharp). Lots of ways to achieve the same result depending on the condition of your edge and what you seek.

(You can also add ceramic rods and strops to the methods above...depending, again, on what you wish to achieve. Refinement, burr removal etc. Experience will be the best teacher.)

 

[T Abell]

Think of the steel, (at least in the case of a smooth steel), as realigning an edge. This is not sharpening per se. It may work temporarily but will also, after a few times or less, weaken the edge.

What I generally do with a knife that was recently sharp and is losing its "bite", is use a very fine diamond hone, very lightly to restore the edge. In other words, the least aggressive method is used first. If the bite is restored, I call it good and move on.

On the other hand, if a full sharpening is called for, then I'd work from coarser to finer depending on the edge desired.

You can achieve your shaving edge with a coarse hone, a fine hone, and if the edge is only rolled slightly, a smooth steel (assuming it was already sharp). Lots of ways to achieve the same result depending on the condition of your edge and what you seek.

(You can also add ceramic rods and strops to the methods above...depending, again, on what you wish to achieve. Refinement, burr removal etc. Experience will be the best teacher.)

Where does the ceramic rod fit into this? I have a ceramic rod (kind of like a steel) and a set of "beaver teeth" that are ceramic.

Let me just run down the sharpening stuff I have and see if maybe you can help me make sense of the chaos here, if you don't mind:

- 2 sided ceramic stone - coarse and fine. Not sure of actual grit.
- Smiths set with a Soft Arkansas and Hard Arkansas stone
- Ceramic rod (made kind of like a sharpening steel but ceramic)
- Beaver teeth (angled rods) - ceramic rods
- FDick steel with grooves down the length
- FDick steel - smooth.
- And of course the Worksharp.

Mostly accumulated over the years. Probably none of it the best quality but I don't think any of it is junk either.

Just trying to figure out the order here. I have so much sharpening stuff that it's ridiculous. And I really don't want to buy any more until I know how to use what I have already.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I must disclose that I have never used Arkansas stones but by all accounts you should be able to get a great (arm) shaving edge off a Hard Arkansas stone. Probably off the ceramic stone or rod at well, though quality varies. Check that your stones are flat, that you are reaching the apex with each stone (lots of Sharpie!), and read about deburring.

 

[Bill3152]

Imo an apexed edge even on a very coarse stone even an atoma 140 with some stropping can get you an arm shaving edge. If your slicing I don't think you need more than that although I usually start and stop at the DMT 325. Plenty sharp enough imo. But thats for anyone to decide.

 

[T Abell]

Imo an apexed edge even on a very coarse stone even an atoma 140 with some stropping can get you an arm shaving edge. If your slicing I don't think you need more than that although I usually start and stop at the DMT 325. Plenty sharp enough imo. But thats for anyone to decide.

I realize that part of this is the knife itself, and how sharp of an edge the steel can support.

The two I have been working with are a CRKT Ripsnort (8Cr13Mov - yeah, I know....) and an Ontario Rat II in D2.

I just want to get my knives as sharp as I can get them but I don't really want to spend more money on sharpening stuff at this point. And I want an edge that will hold up for a while.

That damn Ontario is so hard that it took me nearly a weekend to get it back right.

 

[Blues]

ceramic is generally going to be fairly fine...leaving an edge that is polished or burnished to some degree.

the more "coarse" ceramic will do a better job of removing some material for sharpening.

but if you aren't careful, ceramic rods can lead to some issues, such as edge deformation.

i have found that ceramic isn't necessarily the best option for using on low alloy (cheaper) steels that one often finds in paring knives etc. it seems those steels develop burrs that just flip from side to side rather than get removed. (instead i'll just use a 1000 grit water stone or a light touch with a well worn diamond hone.)

i'm finishing a lot less on ceramic these days though it was my favorite for years. i'm spending a lot more time finishing with a light touch on diamond...whether the bonded variety or plated.

 

[Bill3152]

I realize that part of this is the knife itself, and how sharp of an edge the steel can support.

The two I have been working with are a CRKT Ripsnort (8Cr13Mov - yeah, I know....) and an Ontario Rat II in D2.

I just want to get my knives as sharp as I can get them but I don't really want to spend more money on sharpening stuff at this point. And I want an edge that will hold up for a while.

That damn Ontario is so hard that it took me nearly a weekend to get it back right.

DMT 325 may be your one and done. Works fine with any steels. Cuts fast. It isn't a polisher though. The edge will be scratchy. But plenty sharp. I do all my kitchen stuff with it and very rarely go above that for my edc. I did though have too much time on my hands a few weeks ago and put a mirror on a few. For my uses the coarse working edge lasts longer. But don't let me stop you from doing whatever you feel you want to do.

 

[miso2]

I only use coarse (#150~240) stones (diamond or silicon carbide) these days and can get most knives to hair whittling sharp.
It is rather the matter of apexing and burr removal than tools.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

miso2 I hope you make a video of that. I think scrape shaving is about the best I can hope for at that grit level. Are you counting stropping as part of the process or is hair whittling right off the stone?

 

[miso2]

M Mr.Wizard
It depends on the steel.
I can get to that level of sharpness without stropping for low alloy steels like 1095 and TruSharp.
For others, especially high vanadium steels, I need to use some sort of stropping most time.

I will try to make a video of my sharpening and the result.
Probably this weekend.

 

[miso2]

I realize that part of this is the knife itself, and how sharp of an edge the steel can support.

The two I have been working with are a CRKT Ripsnort (8Cr13Mov - yeah, I know....) and an Ontario Rat II in D2.

I just want to get my knives as sharp as I can get them but I don't really want to spend more money on sharpening stuff at this point. And I want an edge that will hold up for a while.

That damn Ontario is so hard that it took me nearly a weekend to get it back right.

For D2, you should use diamond or hard ceramic (silicon carbide and cubic boron nitride) stones.
Natural and soft ceramic (aluminum oxide) stones may not work well.

 

[Getting older]

You can get a shaving edge with just a 600 grit diamond and very light stripping on 154cm or spydwrcos at's 55

 

[Wowbagger]

Thumbnail test

That is all I need to do and I can tell all the other sharpness levels just from that.
If the edge will just barely catch on my nail it is time to sharpen for sure. If it slides down my nail it is a little past or there is just a bad spot on the edge that got dinged / flattened.
I can tell if the edge will whittle hair or tree top just by how it sinks into my thumb nail. Sure I whittle hair to fool around but the nail is ALL I really need to test the edge.

NOW . . .
Here comes the commercial . . .
Just use the Edge Pro and just use appropriate stone material for the steel alloy (or ceramic blade) that you are sharpening and forget all that other funny stuff : strops, steels, what have you.

Done right one or two stones will get you to shave sharp (400 & 1000 or even 150 and 400 if the edge is really beat up and you have practiced sharpening) . . . from there another stone or two will get you whittling hair.
What's not to like ? ? ? ?

If the edge isn't shaving or catching on your nail it is up to you to decide how far back on the list of stone grits to go to get the edge back in shape in the least amount of time.

Experience . . . just keep farting around until you just know what stone to start with or to use next.

Me; I like Shapton Glass 220, 500, 1,000 then 4,000
but then I like polished edges that ALWAYS are hair whittling sharp when I am done.
The Edge Pro gets me there effortlessly and fast. As long as I follow the procedure step by step and don't miss adjusting the guide block while using the stop collar I don't have to think or struggle . . . just go through the motions and it is as sharp as I could ever dream of EVERY TIME ! ! !

I suppose that if I were just going to cut up a bunch of sod or open bags of gravel I would stop earlier but I don't do that kind of cutting. I do, however, do a lot of push cutting every day.

So yeah :
if a knife will cut printer paper but won't shave and I want it to shave . . . sharpen it . . . on the stones.

 

[T Abell]

For D2, you should use diamond or hard ceramic (silicon carbide and cubic boron nitride) stones.
Natural and soft ceramic (aluminum oxide) stones may not work well.

Honestly I don't know what kind of stone my "main stone" even is. I have the soft and hard arkansas but I did a lot of work this weekend with one that looks like this:

It's not marked with grit or anything else (which might tell you all you need to know). It did make progress on the D2 blade. The issue I'm having is when to go to the fine side. I did see a similar one at Ace Hardware. I know it's nothing special but it does seem to work.

I did use the "sharpie trick" and I was right on the money with the bevel. I also found a non-slip pad to put under the stone so I could use both hands on the blade. That really helped - especially on the Ontario (D2).

On the Ripsnort, I ran it through the Worksharp with the fine belt in place + some Bore Bright last night, and the edge now looks really good and will shave hair - sorta (I wouldn't wanna shave my face with it though). It's 8Cr13Mov so I don't know how much sharper of an edge it can support.

I just REALLY don't want to buy any more sharpening stuff right now. Something like a Wicked Edge is definitely out based on cost. I have a toolbox full of stuff now.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Honestly I don't know what kind of stone my "main stone" even is. I have the soft and hard arkansas but I did a lot of work this weekend with one that looks like this:

It's not marked with grit or anything else (which might tell you all you need to know). It did make progress on the D2 blade. The issue I'm having is when to go to the fine side. I did see a similar one at Ace Hardware. I know it's nothing special but it does seem to work.

I did use the "sharpie trick" and I was right on the money with the bevel. I also found a non-slip pad to put under the stone so I could use both hands on the blade. That really helped - especially on the Ontario (D2).

On the Ripsnort, I ran it through the Worksharp with the fine belt in place + some Bore Bright last night, and the edge now looks really good and will shave hair - sorta (I wouldn't wanna shave my face with it though). It's 8Cr13Mov so I don't know how much sharper of an edge it can support.

I just REALLY don't want to buy any more sharpening stuff right now. Something like a Wicked Edge is definitely out based on cost. I have a toolbox full of stuff now.

That's likely a garden-variety aluminum oxide oilstone, of the sort found at hardware stores (like ACE). Such stones vary all over the place in their ability to grind steel or refine it. Some really cheap ones don't grind well, or clog or glaze much too quickly. Better quality AlOx stones, like Norton's India, generally do better. But with steels like D2, which really need something extra for refining or apexing cleanly, these stones sometimes come up a little bit short of what a more capable stone, like SiC or diamond, can do. D2's large carbides need to be carefully shaped with an abrasive that's capable of cleanly cutting them at a light touch, so the carbides don't just get pushed aside or torn out of the apex. I like diamond hones for apexing and refining D2, for this reason.

A steel like 8Cr13MoV on the other hand, should be handled pretty easily by a simple aluminum oxide stone.

 

[Ajack60]

Where does the ceramic rod fit into this? I have a ceramic rod (kind of like a steel) and a set of "beaver teeth" that are ceramic.

Let me just run down the sharpening stuff I have and see if maybe you can help me make sense of the chaos here, if you don't mind:

- 2 sided ceramic stone - coarse and fine. Not sure of actual grit.
- Smiths set with a Soft Arkansas and Hard Arkansas stone
- Ceramic rod (made kind of like a sharpening steel but ceramic)
- Beaver teeth (angled rods) - ceramic rods
- FDick steel with grooves down the length
- FDick steel - smooth.
- And of course the Worksharp.

Mostly accumulated over the years. Probably none of it the best quality but I don't think any of it is junk either.

Just trying to figure out the order here. I have so much sharpening stuff that it's ridiculous. And I really don't want to buy any more until I know how to use what I have already.

A pic of what you have would be a better way to show what you’ve got.
I don’t have a clue about some of the stuff you listed

 

[T Abell]

That's likely a garden-variety aluminum oxide oilstone, of the sort found at hardware stores (like ACE). Such stones vary all over the place in their ability to grind steel or refine it. Some really cheap ones don't grind well, or clog or glaze much too quickly. Better quality AlOx stones, like Norton's India, generally do better. But with steels like D2, which really need something extra for refining or apexing cleanly, these stones sometimes come up a little bit short of what a more capable stone, like SiC or diamond, can do. D2's large carbides need to be carefully shaped with an abrasive that's capable of cleanly cutting them at a light touch, so the carbides don't just get pushed aside or torn out of the apex. I like diamond hones for apexing and refining D2, for this reason.

A steel like 8Cr13MoV on the other hand, should be handled pretty easily by a simple aluminum oxide stone.

I may look into a diamond hone then, for the Ontario.

A pic of what you have would be a better way to show what you’ve got.
I don’t have a clue about some of the stuff you listed

I'll try to remember to take one tonight and post it tomorrow.

Like I say - I'm just trying to figure out what to use for what, what I should get rid of, and what order to use them in. Ceramic before steel? Steel before ceramic?

The Worksharp does a good job but I don't like it for everything. Can get a tad aggressive and isn't kind to knife tips.

 

[miso2]

Honestly I don't know what kind of stone my "main stone" even is. I have the soft and hard arkansas but I did a lot of work this weekend with one that looks like this:

It's not marked with grit or anything else (which might tell you all you need to know). It did make progress on the D2 blade. The issue I'm having is when to go to the fine side. I did see a similar one at Ace Hardware. I know it's nothing special but it does seem to work.

I did use the "sharpie trick" and I was right on the money with the bevel. I also found a non-slip pad to put under the stone so I could use both hands on the blade. That really helped - especially on the Ontario (D2).

On the Ripsnort, I ran it through the Worksharp with the fine belt in place + some Bore Bright last night, and the edge now looks really good and will shave hair - sorta (I wouldn't wanna shave my face with it though). It's 8Cr13Mov so I don't know how much sharper of an edge it can support.

I just REALLY don't want to buy any more sharpening stuff right now. Something like a Wicked Edge is definitely out based on cost. I have a toolbox full of stuff now.

Pictures would definitely help.
If your stone looks like that, it has be really coarse like #100 and #240.