Sharpness Chart

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wootzblade said:
As you know, I have push-cut all Rizla varieties, Red and Green are clearly different.
They require different edge keenness and BESS score to cleanly push-cut them.
You can get yourself both the Green and Red, slice them, appreciate the difference and stop wondering WHY, rather take as a given.
For the purpose of this Chart we picked the Rizla Green as an international brand most closely matching our Australian Tally-Ho rolling paper.

BUT, push-cutting through Rizla papers can tell more about the edge, and their Micron ultrathin is especially interesting - the Rizla rolling papers can be precisely matched to razor thickness/quality all along the range from the best to the worse - just it is out of the scope of this chart and study.
Click to expand...

Thanks but didn't answer my question. Any idea why they're "clearly different"? Is their website wrong? Actually different paper (can you tell?)

Seems weird if it's the same paper, just a different color, (which could just be a marketing scheme)...that you'd see such a difference. Was hoping, since you did the study, you might know? (Especially if not a weight difference).

I don't really want to start testing different papers... just came here to see which one to get, and ran across this. Thought you might know already... if not, no biggie. ;)
 
Pick the Green Rizla as the Sharpness Chart has BESS scores and a good edge apex width estimate for it.

Cigarette papers are ranged by how fast they burn, as in the end this is what matters in personal preferences of the rolling smokers - and how fast they burn depends not on their weight only, but also on density i.e. how the fibres are weaved and glued together.
Similarly, docket thermal paper and quality newsprints are in the same 50 GSM range, but the dockets are way denser.
Rizla Green burns faster than Red.
 
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wootzblade said:
...
Finally I've got a full assortment of Rizla cigarette rolling papers.

From the Rizla website: "The variation of thicknesses determines how long the paper burns for, Red papers are the thickest so burn the fastest while Silver are thinner and burn the slowest."
Smokers know that pleasure from a cigarette partly depends on how fast it burns.

I've got Rizla Silver - the thinnest, then goes Blue, Green, Orange, and Red is thickest.

Rizla_all.JPG


Tested them for cross push-cut with the same blades I used to test Tally-Ho rolling paper:
Wilkinson Sword DE safety razor - scores 30 BESS on the PT50 edge sharpness tester, has 0.05-0.06 micron edge apex width; and
a knife that scores 20-25 BESS, i.e. about 0.04 micron edge apex width.

With the Tally-Ho rolling paper, the Wilkinson Sword razor almost passes the test, but the cut is somewhat rough; the knife passes cleanly.

Silver - Wilkinson Sword razor - clean push-cut
Blue - Wilkinson Sword razor - clean push-cut
Green - Wilkinson Sword razor - clean push-cut
Orange - Wilkinson Sword razor - roughens the paper
Red - Wilkinson Sword razor - tears the paper

Silver - Knife - clean push-cut
Blue - Knife - clean push-cut
Green - Knife - clean push-cut
Orange - Knife - clean push-cut
Red - Knife - roughens the paper

The most resemblance with the Tally-Ho rolling paper has Rizla Green.

Results contradict our intuitive expectation that a thinner paper would be harder to cut.

I've updated the chart on our website
http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf
Click to expand...

wootzblade said:
As you know, I have push-cut all Rizla varieties, Red and Green are clearly different.
They require different edge keenness and BESS score to cleanly push-cut them.
You can get yourself both the Green and Red, slice them, appreciate the difference and stop wondering WHY, rather take as a given.
For the purpose of this Chart we picked the Rizla Green as an international brand most closely matching our Australian Tally-Ho rolling paper.

BUT, push-cutting through Rizla papers can tell more about the edge, and their Micron ultrathin is especially interesting - the Rizla rolling papers can be matched to razor thickness/quality all along the range from the best to the worse - just it is out of the scope of this chart and study.
Click to expand...

wootzblade said:
Cigarette papers are ranged by how fast they burn, as in the end this is what matters in personal preferences of the rolling smokers - and how fast they burn depends not on their weight only, but also on density i.e. how the fibres are weaved and glued together.
Similarly, docket thermal paper and quality newsprints are in the same 50 GSM range, but the dockets are way denser.
Rizla Green burns faster than Red.
Click to expand...

I finally got some, and spent the last couple of days cutting... no difference that I can tell, between the red and green, other than the "cut corners" on the green. I even burned a couple of pieces to see if I could see a difference... none that I can tell (although not very scientific, and maybe not the correct "burn" test). ;) Even looked at them under a microscope... both looked the same. But in particular... cutting... if a blade cut one, it would cut the other, if it wouldn't cut one, it wouldn't cut the other, with any noticeable difference.

Sorry, but it was your suggestion to see for myself. Maybe there's another reason for the difference we're seeing, but no idea why... everything I've read and now seen/tested indicate they're the same, except for those corners.

BTW, I missed it earlier... but "orange" is actually described as "thick" vs. "medium" for both red and green and is 20g vs. 17.5g for red and green. Maybe you just got them reversed in testing? There's an obvious difference in the thickness of the ones I got... hard to believe the orange wouldn't appear thicker than the red. Even the finer blue and silver, with only 1g difference, is easily noticeable which is which.

All this probably not that big a deal... except for the fact you see such a difference in testing... not sure why.

Also, (you may already know this), according to their website brochure, Rizla makes the "Tally Ho" brand in the same weight as the red or green (17.5g)... so that explains the correlation you see there.

p.s. Ran across these videos... what's the score for these? (Not me, btw).


 
cbwx34 said:
p.s. Ran across these videos... what's the score for these? (Not me, btw).


Click to expand...

Thats a video of the wonderful Ian Rowlandson, a well respected expert in all things slicey in the UK. ground a lovely convex on a kukuri of mine.
2zz13zd.jpg
 
wootzblade wootzblade , would you have time to check/confirm this, given you have a stock of these different Rizla papers?

The specific question, I see these items that cbwx34 is pointing out on their site, it looks like green/red are same weight (with only difference being the corners on the green), and that orange is thicker than both. Is it possible that in your hierarchy of thickness and testing shown in this post, you just reversed the order of the red and the orange, where the orange should be the thickest one that involved tearing the paper, and the red and green should be together and very similar results?

Like cbwx, it's not a big deal to me, just interested to find out what the actual difference is if any, and don't have all those varieties here to test. If it turns out red/green are basically the same, it could save folks a few $ as I see in a few places like Big River site, the red are a little cheaper.

Thanks all for testing.


cbwx34 said:
I finally got some, and spent the last couple of days cutting... no difference that I can tell, between the red and green, other than the "cut corners" on the green. I even burned a couple of pieces to see if I could see a difference... none that I can tell (although not very scientific, and maybe not the correct "burn" test). ;) Even looked at them under a microscope... both looked the same. But in particular... cutting... if a blade cut one, it would cut the other, if it wouldn't cut one, it wouldn't cut the other, with any noticeable difference.

Sorry, but it was your suggestion to see for myself. Maybe there's another reason for the difference we're seeing, but no idea why... everything I've read and now seen/tested indicate they're the same, except for those corners.

BTW, I missed it earlier... but "orange" is actually described as "thick" vs. "medium" for both red and green and is 20g vs. 17.5g for red and green. Maybe you just got them reversed in testing? There's an obvious difference in the thickness of the ones I got... hard to believe the orange wouldn't appear thicker than the red. Even the finer blue and silver, with only 1g difference, is easily noticeable which is which.

All this probably not that big a deal... except for the fact you see such a difference in testing... not sure why.
Click to expand...
 
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H
wootzblade said:
FYI, we've added a sharpness chart to the Sharpening Resources section of our website
http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Sharpness_Chart.pdf
Includes data for all traditional sharpness tests.
Click to expand...
Wootzblade, i havent found those Rizzla papers in my area just yet, any chance you've looked at Bugler (Original) cigarrette paper? The stores near me also always have orange Zig Zags(or this could be slang). Maybe I should just order the other ones.

Thanks
 
Friends, guys,
I am not ignoring your posts, and also curious to look into those specifics, especially the oxidation effect on sharpness.
Just ATM I have too many other tasks in line I have to do first, both the business and family related, and we are in the middle of a project for one large company, and also preparing for Knife Shows, and have to finish another study for an article.
Will definitely refine the sharpness chart further when time allows.
Sorry about that delay.

If someone else has a BESS sharpness tester, and curiosity and time to contribute further, we will happily invite him/her to become a co-author of this chart.
Even better if this chart could turn into a joint forum project.
 
wootzblade said:
Friends, guys,
I am not ignoring your posts, and also curious to look into those specifics, especially the oxidation effect on sharpness.
Just ATM I have too many other tasks in line I have to do first, both the business and family related, and we are in the middle of a project for one large company, and also preparing for Knife Shows, and have to finish another study for an article.
Will definitely refine the sharpness chart further when time allows.
Sorry about that delay.

If someone else has a BESS sharpness tester, and curiosity and time to contribute further, we will happily invite him/her to become a co-author of this chart.
Even better if this chart could turn into a joint forum project.
Click to expand...
Hey wootz, i understand. I hesitated to even ask. If fate allows, an answer would still be appreciated. If not, it would certainly just be simpler for me to order the brands you have already posted about.
To be honest i am more curious about the oxidation question, and because that is something you already expressed an interest in, I feel better about asking.
No pressing demands are driving these questions, merely curiosity.
Thanks
 
Hey Wootz, I understand as well. I appreciate as earlier in thread, you investing the time to put that chart together, update it, and share it with everybody here. As you said above, if somebody has a BESS tester and could help test and validate those cigarette papers to further confirm one as a standard 'home testing' medium, that would be great.

One anecdotal finding: I tested a pack of the Rizla red against the green. This is informal and anecdotal, not conclusive. Tested 3 freshly sharpened knives, two in M390, one in Elmax. All 3 would push-cut both, but I observed in all 3 cases, the slice was slightly--and I mean SLIGHTLY--more ragged on the red. Also, the consistency of the paper felt slightly different to me on the red. Perhaps it is the same weight, but manufactured with a different process? Maybe this would explain why Wootz found the two burn at different rates? I dunno. In any case, I found the green still slightly preferable. But I still think as you said, more detailed tests on a few knives, with photos, and using a BESS tester, would render more solid results. As for me, I have no dog in this hunt and no reason to choose one Rizla paper over another, since I don't smoke! My wife thought I was nuts when I ordered some. :confused: But after trying the blue (way too thin), the red, and the green, I'm gonna keep using the green for my own testing. I do think there's some difference between it and the red beyond just the different cut on the corners.
 
Littlebabycarrot said:
Hey wootz, i understand. I hesitated to even ask. If fate allows, an answer would still be appreciated. If not, it would certainly just be simpler for me to order the brands you have already posted about.
To be honest i am more curious about the oxidation question, and because that is something you already expressed an interest in, I feel better about asking.
No pressing demands are driving these questions, merely curiosity.
Thanks
Click to expand...
I just had a thought. I looked the slowest burning papers in High Times or some other 420 enthusiast publication they had the ten best, rizzla was #5. Orange zigzags at #8. I am not trying to insinuate all these brands will be as thin or that others on the list are thinner than Rizzla, but it may give you an idea of alternative brands if Rizzla is not available where you live. I was using Bugler papers just because they came with 100 per package but it was easy to see the orange zigzags were much flimsier and let much more light thru its weave.
 
How can you get knives that sharp and for what job they are used, the sharpest in the chart?
 
Lots of people sharpen knives sharper than razors - see for example scores from The Sharpest Knife Contest running this weekend in Sydney, Australia, the best score is 25 BESS i.e. twice as sharp as a razor
http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=353

How we sharpen knives can be viewed on our YouTube channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrs9DEOG9tHbxAH50CKINqA?view_as=subscriber
and read on our website.

Filleting and wood carving require a razor sharp knife, but I understand why you ask.
A common misconception is that sharpening past a certain point is useless since the edge that is too sharp will dull fast.

Truth is that for better cutting performance, the edge should always be sharpened to the sharpest apex you can.
Experiments have shown that the best cutting performance through the test have knives with the best initial sharpness. One is our own research:
http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SET_research.pdf

Sharp apex does not predispose the edge to rolling - over-thinning the edge past the angle at which it deforms in cutting certain stuff does.
Try to visualize the rolled edge with your mental vision, see this edge bend and the sharp apex at the bend end - the stuff it cuts wraps over the bend until it contacts the edge apex where it is severed; when the apex is sharper even the rolled edge cuts better. In other words, the sharper edge mitigates edge rolling.

For the best performance the knife edge must have the lowest angle its steel can hold; give your edge the least possible angle not over-thinning the edge past the angle at which it deforms in cutting certain stuff you intend to cut.
 
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wootzblade said:
Lots of people sharpen knives sharper than razors - see for example scores from The Sharpest Knife Contest running this weekend in Sydney, Australia, the best score is 25 BESS i.e. twice as sharp as a razor
http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=353&pid=3646#pid3646

How we sharpen knives can be viewed on our YouTube channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrs9DEOG9tHbxAH50CKINqA?view_as=subscriber
and read on our website.

Filleting and wood carving require a razor sharp knife, but I understand why you ask.
A common misconception is that sharpening past a certain point is useless since the edge that is too sharp will dull fast.

Truth is that for better cutting performance, the edge should always be sharpened to the sharpest apex you can.
Experiments have shown that the best cutting performance through the test have knives with the best initial sharpness. One is our own research:
http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SET_research.pdf

Sharp apex does not predispose the edge to rolling - over-thinning the edge past the angle at which it deforms in cutting certain stuff does.
Try to visualize the rolled edge with your mental vision, see this edge bend and the sharp apex at the bend end - the stuff it cuts wraps over the bend until it contacts the edge apex where it is severed; when the apex is sharper even the rolled edge cuts better. In other words, the sharper edge mitigates edge rolling.

For the best performance the knife edge must have the lowest angle its steel can hold; give your edge the least possible angle not over-thinning the edge past the angle at which it deforms in cutting certain stuff you intend to cut.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply i have one more question i am new to sharpening and i like it alot but i don't understand how you can get sharper apex i mean when you bring the two bevels you get an apex right in the center how you cen get it sharper? only with lowering the angle? my knives cut but when i touch them they feel dull even tho they shave why is that (sorry for the stupid questions i just saw you can help me with that) Thanks is advance!!!
 
In short - clean the edge apex not rounding it.
You are right that when the 2 bevels meet at the apex, the apex is already sharp, but it is sharp at the base of the burr.
Apexing the edge is not as challenging as is the deburring simply because in honing we apply macro-forces to the tiny edge of 0.2-0.1 micron, and accuracy becomes really critical.

Edge angle and the edge sharpness are not related. Practically yes, it is easier to get a razor sharp edge at a lower angle like 10 dps, but people get it at 12, and 15, and 20 dps.
E.g. the Sydney Knife Show kitchen knife winner of 25 BESS, sharper than the best safety razor, has edge angle of 34 degrees included.
 
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wootzblade said:
In short - clean the edge apex not rounding it.
You are right that when the 2 bevels meet at the apex, the apex is already sharp, but it is sharp at the base of the burr.
Apexing the edge is not as challenging as is the deburring simply because in honing we apply macro-forces to the tiny edge of 0.2-0.1 micron, and accuracy becomes really critical.

Edge angle and the edge sharpness are not related. Practically yes, it is easier to get a razor sharp edge at a lower angle like 10 dps, but people get it at 12, and 15, and 20 dps.
E.g. the Sydney Knife Show kitchen knife winner of 25 BESS, sharper than the best safety razor, has edge angle of 34 degrees included.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info! How do you deburr ? So you mean the apex gets sharper when there is no burr right?
 
Thenoob said:
Thanks for the info! How do you deburr ? So you mean the apex gets sharper when there is no burr right?
Click to expand...

Right, the apex is razor sharp right there at the base of the burr, you only have to clean it gently.
Master your honing skill on higher carbon harder knives, but not too wear resistant - they are easier to deburr cleanly w/o rounding the apex. E.g. blades that have carbon content 0.8% - 1% and hardness of HRC 60, but are not super-steels.

Deburring softer (and cheaper) knives is way more difficult.

A shortcut to sharp edge are knife sharpening guide clips, like on the photo - use the same guide through sharpening and honing.
Knife_Sharpening_Guide_Clip.jpeg


There are many comprehensive honing/stropping threads on this forum, e.g.:
https://bladeforums.com/threads/stropping-angle-plus-pressure.750008/
and
https://bladeforums.com/threads/stropsanity-compounds-substrates-and-the-godstones.1570661/
 
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wootzblade said:
Right, the apex is razor sharp right there at the base of the burr, you only have to clean it gently.
Master your honing skill on higher carbon harder knives, but not too wear resistant - they are easier to deburr cleanly w/o rounding the apex. E.g. blades that have carbon content 0.8% - 1% and hardness of HRC 60, but are not super-steels.

Deburring softer (and cheaper) knives is way more difficult.

A shortcut to sharp edge are knife sharpening guide clips, like on the photo - use the same guide through sharpening and honing.
Knife_Sharpening_Guide_Clip.jpeg


There are many comprehensive honing/stropping threads on this forum, e.g.:
https://bladeforums.com/threads/stropping-angle-plus-pressure.750008/
and
https://bladeforums.com/threads/stropsanity-compounds-substrates-and-the-godstones.1570661/
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for the provided info i sharpen on a lansky and there are not much clips out there for it! How can you round the edge while deburing? With different angle is ur free handing?
 
wootzblade said:
Right, the apex is razor sharp right there at the base of the burr, you only have to clean it gently.
Master your honing skill on higher carbon harder knives, but not too wear resistant - they are easier to deburr cleanly w/o rounding the apex. E.g. blades that have carbon content 0.8% - 1% and hardness of HRC 60, but are not super-steels.

Deburring softer (and cheaper) knives is way more difficult.

A shortcut to sharp edge are knife sharpening guide clips, like on the photo - use the same guide through sharpening and honing.
Knife_Sharpening_Guide_Clip.jpeg


There are many comprehensive honing/stropping threads on this forum, e.g.:
https://bladeforums.com/threads/stropping-angle-plus-pressure.750008/
and
https://bladeforums.com/threads/stropsanity-compounds-substrates-and-the-godstones.1570661/
Click to expand...
Hello again! I just shapened a low quality 14x6 steel knife on 15 degrees per side and then got it on 19-20 dg with the last hole i have 1000grit alumina oxide secondary bevel stropped it an now it cuts single hairs! Is that a decent level of sharpness?
 
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