Shotguns for Deer Hunting. Some Questions.

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coote

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Hi. I've done a lot of hunting, but I've never seriously hunted bigger animals with a shotgun. I understand that shotguns are used a lot for deer hunting in the USA. I'd like to learn more about this.

Are they widely used because they are considered to be safer in some way?

How effective is buckshot for deer? What would be a maximum effective range for buckshot?

Are solid slugs used much? Would it be unreasonable to take a shot at anything over fifty yards using a 12 gauge slug?

Can you only shoot slugs out of an unchoked barrel? (if that is the right term).

Thanks in advance for your comments. Best wishes .... Coote.
 
Awright, here's what I know having hunted in California:
1. My impression is that most shotgun biggame hunters [in other states] are doing so because the region they live in doesn't permit centerfire rifles for big game.

2. The "safety" thing is about the only justification these regions ever seem to offer as to why they prevent rifle hunting. Personally, I can't see it. Whatever.

3. Buckshot has developed a reputation over the decades as "the great wounder" in big game hunting. As an example, my 16 gauge side by side throws any old birdshot into excellent, usable patterns. However, it scatters buckshot crazily and uselessly. I couldn't even keep all the pellets on a pizza box at 20 yards, using factory ammo. Reloads were way worse! Personally, I give up on buckshot for the deer fields. None of my existing shotguns like it.

4.Foster slugs are another matter entirely. They shoot neatly to point of aim for me, and have big smackdown power. In my personal smoothbores, I'd definately take 50 yd. shots with my particular setup(s). Since most of my shotguns lack a rear sight, I wouldn't even consider taking a longer shot.

5. My 16 gauge barrels are choked IC and Modified. This is fine for the old fashioned pure lead Foster slugs I have on hand. They swage down just fine on their way out the muzzle.

Better men than me have commented on maximum effective range in the deer fields, to the effect that your personal max range is the distance you can keep all your [rifle] shots on a paper plate, from unsuported field positions, with common hunting ammo.

My preference is rifles for big game. A shotgun is fine if that is what you have or simply prefer. Don't let me dissuade you.

100 yards is a long shot with most shotguns using "rifled" slugs. I haven't experience with the more expensive and specialized slug guns sporting rifled barrels, scopes &etc. using those modern wasp waisted sabotted rounds. Those fellows may feel confident to 150 yards. I can't guarantee that, though.


CHEERS
 
Thank you Erasmus for your full reply. Its common sense resonates with me. I appreciate your personal insights. Coote.
 
Echoing Erasmus, most Shotguns do provide plenty of close range knockdown power. I live in a state that most deer are taken with a Bow, Shotgun, or a Muzzleloader. Close Range is the keyword and the reason mosts states opt out of center fire rifle hunting. a shotguns slug may travel only a mile, and shot, a few hundred yards. But a modern center fire rifle bullet will go several miles. albeit inaccurately, in a densely populated area that = disaster. but what about smokeless muzzleloaders? MOST muzzleloading hunters shoot pistol type bullets through there rifles, again limiting power, and range of the weapon. However I Digress. We have many "off the shelf" accurate slug shooting "shotguns". The VERY accurate one have rifled barrels shooting saboted slugs (usually .50 cal pistol type hollow point bullets.) at velocities approaching 2000fps. Their accuracy can be as far as 250 yards! The Foster type slug guns are usually smooth bores with Full or Modified choked barrels (IME, YMMV) and they are good for around 40-100 yards Depending upon the caliber or "guage" ofcourse.
I do not like Buckshot for anything but clay targets and fowling. It tears up the hide and meat like a grinder. a single well placed bullet does the job much more cleanly :) Most of my community I hunt with uses slugs if they go huntng at all. Our state recently allowed rifled in pistol calibers. Limiting overall case length to 1.8" This should encourage more hunters to take part.

Jason
 
i LOVE using a shotgun for deer hunting. esp when stalking through thick brush or thick trees. buckshot from a 12ga usually has a good kill pattern and power to about 40yds maybe more. most of my shots are less. of all my guns i bet i have killed more deer with a 12ga than any other. if you are in woods hunting and can only see and shoot safely to about 50-60yds. i would go with a shotgun.
 
I've killed big hogs with 12 guage slugs and sabots. They have good knockdown power to maybe 60-80 yards or so on 200 lb. hogs, I'd say 100 yards on a deer will be very effective. The safety thing with them is that the terminal range of a slug and of course shot, is far less than with even a medium caliber rifle bullet. I did see a lead rifled slug mushroom and stop in the shoulder plate of a big sow at point blank range, so I'd go with a nice bonded sabot in a rifled barrel for good penetration. I enjoy using a shotgun for big game where the geography and/or laws require it.
 
I've hunted exclusively with a slug gun for over 30 years because I live in a shotgun only county. I think most DNR or Game Commissions look at how populated an area is when making this decision.
I started out with a smoothbore cylinder bore choke and rifled slugs. Accuracy was not all that good so most shots had to be 50 yds and under. Then I went to a rifled choke and sabot slugs. Accuracy was alittle better with shots being at the max of 100 yds. I went back to rifled slugs because I did have problems with "keyholing" with the sabots in a rifled choke. I finally gave up slug hunting and hunted only with a muzzleloader for about 5 years because rifled slugs are so inconsistent at killing deer. I had to trail so many. I finally broke down and bought a fully rifled barrel for my TC Encore when Winchester came out with Platinum Tip and Nosler Partition Gold slugs. These slugs are deadly out to about 200 yds. They will drop a deer in it's tracks with a well placed shot.
Scott
 
Scott is right on; with a properly rifled barrel (1 in 28" or tighter) the sabot slugs are deadly out to 200 yards. Many rifled slug barrels have been made with 1 in 32" or even 1 in 36" rifling-- stay away from these, they will not stabilize sabot slugs worth a hoot. The next step is to try every sabot round you can find, and choose the one which is the most accurate out at 100 yards or more. Don't worry about the ballistics, they are all capable of killing deer as far as you can hit them. Accuracy is the key. When you find one that shoots real good, buy a bunch of them as different lots might change over time. Here is a typical ballistics chart for a 12 ga. sabot slug from a scope sighted gun.

slugs.jpg


As you can see, they have as much killing power at 200 yards as a .44 magnum handgun does at 25.

Foster type slugs in a smooth bore are only good out to about 75 yards, and seem to shoot the best from improved cylinder chokes.
 
coote said:
Hi. I've done a lot of hunting, but I've never seriously hunted bigger animals with a shotgun. I understand that shotguns are used a lot for deer hunting in the USA. I'd like to learn more about this.

Are they widely used because they are considered to be safer in some way?

How effective is buckshot for deer? What would be a maximum effective range for buckshot?

Are solid slugs used much? Would it be unreasonable to take a shot at anything over fifty yards using a 12 gauge slug?

Can you only shoot slugs out of an unchoked barrel? (if that is the right term).

Thanks in advance for your comments. Best wishes .... Coote.
Click to expand...

IMO shotguns are not any safer than a rifle.

Buckshot -I cant speak for other states, but here in NY buckshot is illegal for deer hunting. I would rather use a slug anyway. Buckshot accuracy is nowhere near that of a good slug.

As for a 50 yard shot -no problem, buy you may want to have sights, IMO it will be tough with just a bead. But here in the states Ive read most shots at Deer are under 30 yards. In my experience I would agree, or at least here in the northeast. Ive put 2" groups at 50 yards using 100% lead rifled slugs, without a rifled barrel. Ive seen guys put 2" groups at 100 yards with sabots through a rifled barrel.

You can shoot slugs out of a choked barrel.
 
Just to add a little input and fuel for the grist mill:

I'm out west in California, in the Eastern Sierra. Here, you may be presented with shots at up to 300 yards. I try to stay out of the dog-hair type thick brush. I don't like the bullet deflection opportunities that it poses.

My main deer rifle is an iron sighted surplus rifle, with no easy way to scope. This leads me to self-limit the shots I'm willing to take to < 200 yards. In fact, this year I'll be shooting solid copper Barnes TSX bullets in D8's lead free bullet zone. They shoot 12 minutes low in my Enfield, necessitating the 500 yard sight setting, just to be right on at 100 yards. Out of 5 rounds, I only got the last two on target. It took a while to figure out where those expensive, environmentally friendly missiles were going! They DO NOT shoot anywhere near the same point of aim as all other lead rounds. Be warned.

I suppose we're all out there practicing our marksmanship? I'm polishing up mine for this fall. Lots of homemade cast lead bullets for getting down my form, and then the expensive store bought copper ones for business.

CHEERS


I'm saving my shotguns for upland birds, thank you very much. There's tons of quail and chukkar out there this year.
 
I live in a state where you can only use center fire in a special January doe season. Just as everyone else has stated, if you want accurate distance you need to shoot sabot slugs through a rifled slug barrel. Ammunition is key, I tried 8 different types of sabots before I found one that punched good groups at 150yds. The same ammunition shoots horrible out of my backup shotgun with a rifled barrel. Match the ammo and the gun and you can get some really impressive ranges. The only thing I use 00buck for is coyote, it is illegal in my state to use 00buck to hunt for deer.
 
Here in southern ont, most places in the farm belts are shotguns only for guns. Mainly due to the limited range when comparing to rifles. I don't believe it's "safer", just shorter range.

I don't feel it's as effective as rifles, just don't see any bang-flops with slugs when comparing to bullets. Never used bucks on ...bucks, so no comments, but I don't think shots are superior to solids at any range.

Most deer are shot with bows around here.
 
iahunter3 said:
I live in a state where you can only use center fire in a special January doe season. Just as everyone else has stated, if you want accurate distance you need to shoot sabot slugs through a rifled slug barrel. Ammunition is key, I tried 8 different types of sabots before I found one that punched good groups at 150yds. The same ammunition shoots horrible out of my backup shotgun with a rifled barrel. Match the ammo and the gun and you can get some really impressive ranges. The only thing I use 00buck for is coyote, it is illegal in my state to use 00buck to hunt for deer.
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thats shocking. i cant tell you how many deer i have rolled over using 00 bucks... thats my favorite load.
 
hung-solo said:
thats shocking. i cant tell you how many deer i have rolled over using 00 bucks... thats my favorite load.
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It is what it is, I guess solid slug 20 gauge or bigger. They have recently (past 5 or so years) allowed us to use handguns during "shotgun" season. I do think shotguns laws are good in more populated areas. Where I live most of the sections are 1 mile X 1mile and there is usually an acreage or two on every side, so limited stray bullet travel is a positive.
 
coote said:
Lee Enfield? .303 British?
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Yes sir. I have a nice old No4 MkI Enfield of English provenance, which throws AK slugs and .311 TSX bullets into honest 1 1/2" 100 yard groups. Ancient junky Mk VII ball ammo throws honest 2" groups(yes, I know how special and accurate that makes my particular specimen). It looks like from Barnes website that their 150 grain .311 TSX round was tailor made for .303 weapons, and secondarily for all the other "odd" (read that "not .308" " groove diameter) .30 calibers, like 7.62x54Russkie.

I've been rabbit/jack rabbit hunting with the M-43 slugs, in preparation for the upcoming deer hunt. Does a nice job on them-- kills, without ripping them up excessively.


Say, why don't you folks start mfg'ing more .303 ammo. We're running damned low on it around here! I'm just about down to rolling my own.

CHEERS
 
Thanks for all the interesting and helpful comments. I now know more about the use of shotguns on deer. I can't see myself using a shotgun as my primary big game weapon, but it is good to know what to expect if I do.

Good stuff Erasmus. As I was growing up, the main three firearm types my buddies and I were aware of were .22s, shotguns, or .303s. As a gun club member, I recall being able to purchase a nice, well-preserved in grease No. 4 Lee Enfield for about NZ$11.

My dad had a few different Lee-Enfields, but the first one I really called my own was an old altered "Long Tom" that had been fitted with another barrel... possibly a Lithgow target barrel. The date on the side was either 1896 0r 1898. I can't recall for sure which one. My dad sold it to a buddy unfortunately, so I ended up just using other guns we had hanging around. It was a pity he got rid of it because it was a solid weapon and it would have been nice to have been hunting with a gun that was 110 years old.

We used to do target shooting with the Lee-Enfields. With open sights we would sometimes out-shoot guys using newer guns with scopes. Most of the shooting would have been done at 200 yards, and the 'bull' was maybe six or eight inches in diameter. I've seen some very good grouping at this range. A lot of the time we just used the standard aperture sights that came on the No 4s, but some guys would have fancy adjustable eye-pieces at the rear sight.

The ammo we used was the MK vii military stuff. Cordite filled, solid bullet. It wasn't an ideal game round, but heck it was accurate. We had a lot of it dated 1957, and I think there is still a bit of it kicking around. Of course it had the Berdan primer with the double flash hole, so it wasn't simple to reload. We did play around with loading it though. We cast quite a few projectiles. I also have a jar full of cartridges that we fitted new projectiles to. We pulled the military heads, then fitted some nice round-nosed ones that weighed maybe 210 grains. Fortunately, before we shot too many of them, my uncle did some research and realized that the cartridges were now dangerously overloaded. So maybe 35 years later I'm still waiting to borrow a bullet puller so I can put a safer/lighter projectile back into the cases.

Back in the late eighties, I think, my dad got hold of some 7.62 x 39 ammo - military steel cased stuff. A friend discovered that it was a cheap option for .303 shooting to pull the heads of these 7.62s and fit them to .303 British cartridges.... and then drill the points. But I wasn't using a big gun much back then, and I think I only ever shot one feral goat with one of these loads. It certainly did the job.

Having all this 7.62 x 39 made us want to own something we could shoot it in other than an AK47 or SKS (which are harder to own nowadays anyway). So my dad shortened up the chamber end of a couple of .303 barrels and re-chambered them for the new cartridge. He had to fiddle around with the magazine quite a bit to get it to work, but we have ended up with a couple of Lee Enfields that now shoot the more readily available cartridge. My dad passed away some years ago... but between him and my brothers we have taken a few animals with these special rifles. One has a scope and one is a beautiful short rifle with old military vee sights... they look like the old Martini or maybe early Long Tom sights to me, but I'm not an expert. But I do know that I like this rifle. I was very pleased with one shot I did with it. I'd been trying to get a deer for several days. On the last day available for hunting I saw some deer. By the time I got to a shooting position they'd climbed further up the ridge from me until they were maybe 110 to possibly 200 yards away. I know this estimate is vague, but it was across some hollow ground. I do know that the deer looked fairly small over my sights. I held my sight at the very top of the deer above the front shoulder and pulled the trigger. The deer gave a leap, took a few steps then fell. I'd shot it right through the heart. But it still took me maybe an hour to find it as I couldn't keep my eye on the spot where it had fallen as I had to cross a hollow.

I feel a twinge of nostalgia when the subject of Lee Enfields comes up. However I think if I get another centrefire it will probably be either a .223 or a 7.62 x 39 fitted with a moderator.

My brother still has a number of Lee Enfields... and a whole stack of parts etc. He is quite an enthusiast and Lee-Enfield historian.

I still think that if I had to pick just one gun to depend on, it would be a Lee Enfield shooting military ammo. I am just so familiar with them, and they always have been very reliable for me.

Great topic. Thanks.
 
Yes, pulled AK ammo-- you can even use the powder charge. This is excellent for .303 reloads. The entire difficulty lies in retrieving the projectile from the steel case.

There are dies which use collet fingers to grab the bullet when you crank down on an adjustment. They are used in conjunction with your press.

Another option is the kinetic bullet pullers, like RCBS's hammer shaped model. It is difficult to defeat the iron grip of steel cases with this tool, and you may even shear the casing collet, with repeated and excessive blows :(

The third option is to simply chuck a Kalashnikov cartridge into your press's ram. Run it up so that the case mouth is closer to the top of the inside of the press's O-frame. Now, place a sharp knife edge against the mouth of the case at a slight angle and finish running up the ram. If you do it right, your sharp pocket knife will peel a 1/8" wide strip of metal from the bullet holding portion of the steel case's neck.

This will weaken the case's grip on the bullet sufficiently that you can wiggle and rotate the bullet loose with fingers or pliers. Works great.

On the heavy bullet topic, I can't even seem to locate them around here. I wonder how well they have been liked by users.


It's been nice hearing people's .303 anecdotes.

I finally went out back to my shade tree reloading press and assembled a box of .303 hunting ammo with some help from my niece and her grandmother. Family time well spent.
 
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