silicon carbide vs aluminum oxide stones on guided angle systems for German kitchen knives RC53-58 and Japanese carbon steel RC62+

[r172eg]

Hi, I am somewhat new to knife sharpening and am still learning. I'm wondering about the difference between silicon carbide vs aluminum oxide stones on guided angle systems (like Haptsone, KME, etc.) for German kitchen knives HRC53-58 and Japanese carbon steel HRC62+. My understanding is aluminum oxide are good for the softer steel forged German knives but harder steel Japanese chef knives require diamond stones or silicone carbide stones.

My question is, since many people use diamond stones also on German knives, could I use silicon carbide on both softer and harder steels? What is the downside other than fast wearing of metal if I sharpen German kitchen knives with silicon carbide stones? I don't want to buy both types, too much money for now. My end goal is reasonably sharp knives for everyday cooking with edges that last a while, not razor edge mirror finish sharp.

I have ruled out diamond stones because I tried some DMT from Home Depot (when I was trying hand sharpening) and very quickly, the diamond wore off, less than 10 knives sharpened. I know diamond in an epoxy resin would last longer, and there are higher quality diamond stones than DMT, but they are very expensive for a full set of many grits of top quality / top price ones compared to top quality / price silicon carbide or aluminum oxide in the EdgePro 6" form factor, for US-made silicon carbide or aluminum oxide stones (Japanese stones can go much more). I have ruled out natural stones, both price and consistency. Thanks! [edits after original post and first round of replies: corrected RC to HRC; and, my misspelling of silicon]

 

[UncleBoots]

Hi, I am somewhat new to knife sharpening and am still learning. I'm wondering about the difference between silicone carbide vs aluminum oxide stones on guided angle systems (like Haptsone, KME, etc.) for German kitchen knives RC53-58 and Japanese carbon steel RC62+. My understanding is aluminum oxide are good for the softer steel forged German knives but harder steel Japanese chef knives require diamond stones or silicone carbide stones.

My question is, since many people use diamond stones also on German knives, could I use silicone carbide on both softer and harder steels? What is the downside other than fast wearing of metal if I sharpen German kitchen knives with silicone carbide stones? I don't want to buy both types, too much money for now. My end goal is reasonably sharp knives for everyday cooking with edges that last a while, not razor edge mirror finish sharp.

I have ruled out diamond stones because I tried some DMT from Home Depot (when I was trying hand sharpening) and very quickly, the diamond wore off, less than 10 knives sharpened. I know diamond in an epoxy resin would last longer, and there are higher quality diamond stones than DMT, but they are very expensive for a full set of many grits of top quality / top price ones compared to top quality / price silicone carbide or aluminum oxide in the EdgePro 6" form factor, for US-made silicone carbide or aluminum oxide stones (Japanese stones can go much more). I have ruled out natural stones, both price and consistency. Thanks!

Silicon carbide and aluminum oxide stones are perfectly suited to the kind of knives you describe. The only time you need to resort to diamond/CBN is when you have hard carbides, generally in supersteels. So, yeah, if you buy kitchen knives in HAP40 or ZDP-189, which exist, or Maxamet, which, I hope, doesn't, you'll want some diamonds.

Also DMT is, in my opinion, substandard stuff. I think this is an unpopular opinion here, and it's possible that it's only the low-end, holes-with-plastic-in-them plates that deserve that.

You do not need "a full set of many grits" to sharpen kitchen knives. A 500 is handy for rebeveling. A 1000 serves most needs, and I generally stop there on the German knives. Add in a 3K and you've covered most Japanese knives, unless you are making sushi. So one, maybe two double-sided Venevs would set you up nicely if you wanted good diamond.

 

[tiguy7]

Silicon carbide and aluminum oxide stones are perfectly suited to the kind of knives you describe. The only time you need to resort to diamond/CBN is when you have hard carbides, generally in supersteels. So, yeah, if you buy kitchen knives in HAP40 or ZDP-189, which exist, or Maxamet, which, I hope, doesn't, you'll want some diamonds.

Also DMT is, in my opinion, substandard stuff. I think this is an unpopular opinion here, and it's possible that it's only the low-end, holes-with-plastic-in-them plates that deserve that.

You do not need "a full set of many grits" to sharpen kitchen knives. A 500 is handy for rebeveling. A 1000 serves most needs, and I generally stop there on the German knives. Add in a 3K and you've covered most Japanese knives, unless you are making sushi. So one, maybe two double-sided Venevs would set you up nicely if you wanted good diamond.

The hardness of Al2O3 is around 72 HRC, so it can sharpen knives in the high 60’s. I sharpen ZDP-189 knives at 67HRC on Shapton Glass stones (Al2O3). I have kitchen knives in ZDP-189 also. 2000 grit is about as far as I go with utility knives. I agree with you about the DMT stuff.View attachment 1935423

 

[Ourorboros]

People use water stones, whose abrasives are aluminum oxide, on those Japanese knives. They give excellent edges.

If the vanadium content of the steel is 4% or more, you will need diamond stones. These are the so called "super steels".
I don't know how much pressure you used on those diamond plates, but even with their recent quality issues DMTs should last longer. You only need the weight of your hands. People who sharpen wood planes say they last over a decade.
As for diamond resin stones, they are quite expensive and are for a niche group.

 

[r172eg]

Thank you, UncleBoots, tiguy7, and Ourorboros, this is all very helpful. In reply to all 3, and with a few follow-up questions in hopes you all have time:

Silicon carbide and aluminum oxide stones are perfectly suited to the kind of knives you describe. The only time you need to resort to diamond/CBN is when you have hard carbides, generally in supersteels.

I will mostly use the German knives where the softer steel is less delicate. I only want to buy a couple of Japanese hand forged Damascus steel knives for the artisanship of the knife maker, which I will mostly keep for display, haven't bought them yet. I would not be getting supersteels at this time.

Also DMT is, in my opinion, substandard stuff. I think this is an unpopular opinion here, and it's possible that it's only the low-end, holes-with-plastic-in-them plates that deserve that.

To be fair to DMT, when I tried the DMT, it was the plastic-holes variety, their least expensive model, and, a Diafold file for serrated knives. I used the file on the tiny serrations on 6 steak knives for a few passes, and one bread knife, and then the file was almost smooth on the areas that had contacted the knives - the DiaFold wouldn't scratch glass in those areas. This was a Zwilling Henckels Twin knife set, a fairly soft steel, so I was not impressed with the DiaFold wearing off. True, a file has a very small surface area, but also, I only used it for a few minutes in total. I did not try the higher quality DMT Dia-Sharp continuous diamond bench stones although I believe DMT says that all their products use the same monocrystaline diamond surface.

You do not need "a full set of many grits" to sharpen kitchen knives. A 500 is handy for rebeveling. A 1000 serves most needs, and I generally stop there on the German knives. Add in a 3K and you've covered most Japanese knives, unless you are making sushi. So one, maybe two double-sided Venevs would set you up nicely if you wanted good diamond.

This is very, very helpful. I had been very confused about whether I needed to go above 1000 for my purpose on German knives.

U UncleBoots - question - what is the "feel" of the Venevs as you sharpen if used with a splash of water? How long does the substrate last and does it lap more or less quickly, compared to a high quality Silicon Carbide or AlOxide? I am considering the Gritomatic Silicon Carbide for EdgePro, or, Gritomatic Boride CS-HD silicon carbide, or, an Idahone ceramic aluminum oxide set. There are a dizzying variety of other types of course such as the Hapstone Ruby Ceramic, natural, ceramic... A link to a discussion of these that you've found very accurate including the "feel" and wear characteristics of the stone would be appreciated.

People use water stones, whose abrasives are aluminum oxide, on those Japanese knives. They give excellent edges.

O Ourorboros - question - are the silicon carbide stones also called water stones?

Having tried the inexpensive DMT (with plastic "holes") and an inexpensive Mercer Culinary 1000/3000 waterstone, I much prefer the "feel" of the water stone free hand moving the knife over it, it is very soothing. However, I was terrible at keeping a consistent angle! Hence, I am now shopping for a guided angle system, one which like Hapstone, EdgePro or KME can take a wide variety of stones in the 6" EdgePro form factor.

The hardness of Al2O3 is around 72 HRC, so it can sharpen knives in the high 60’s. I sharpen ZDP-189 knives at 67HRC on Shapton Glass stones (Al2O3). I have kitchen knives in ZDP-189 also. 2000 grit is about as far as I go with utility knives. I agree with you about the DMT stuff.

T tiguy7 - thank you, I should have said HRC not RC in my original post! Still learning!

Two questions for T tiguy7 - first, I am a little confused about Shapton Glass stones being Al2O3, I had understood Shapton lasted the longest as a synthetic stone, but my other research showed that Silicon Carbide stones last longer (in general) than the aluminum oxide. Does all this (wear of stone, speed of sharpening, type of edge produced) really depend as much on the density of abrasive material and quality of substrate/binder, etc., as much as the chemical composition and molecular shape of the abrasive, and so I should not be considering silicon carbide vs. aluminum oxide per se, but the actual stone brand and type?

Second - what type of "feel and sound" does a Shapton Glass have when used with a splash of water? I know it won't develop the slurry of a lower grade water stone like the Mercer Culinary which partly contributed to the feel / sound that for me, I liked a great deal.

Third Q for everyone - I realize stones are all tradeoffs of different characteristics and not entirely orthogonal characteristics, i.e. a stone that develops the sharpest edge on a microscopic level, might not develop the longest wearing edge on the knife, and it depends on the steel being sharpened. My three dimensions to optimize are A, B, C and to sharpen, in a guided angle system, a Zwilling Henckels Twin forged kitchen knives for everyday use - a "cheap" set of knives as expensive knives go, but a bit above dollar-store quality:

A. a "slow wearing" stone - one doesn't wear quickly - which feels a bit like the water-and-stone-slurry feel of the inexpensive Mercer Culinary, but emphasis on slow wearing which will not require lapping often, and it last a long time to save money. In the guided angle knife sharpening systems, it is a small surface area for the stone and even smaller volume of the stone, and so, to save money, I definitely want a stone that will last a long time even if it is more expensive to begin with. I think that would lean towards diamond in resin substrate but, I gather these don't have the feel / sound of SiCarbide or AlOxide.

B. A stone that sharpens fairly quickly and without a great deal of skill, as I am lazy.

C. A stone that develops an edge which is long wearing.

I would from what I've learned just today, not want to go above 1000 grit. And, a definite plus if it's a type of stone where I could mostly use a single grit stone rather than needing a series, once I have restored a bevel to a consistent angle and undone the damage from my hand-sharpening attempts, given B above.

 

[UncleBoots]

U UncleBoots - question - what is the "feel" of the Venevs as you sharpen if used with a splash of water? How long does the substrate last and does it lap more or less quickly, compared to a high quality Silicon Carbide or AlOxide? I am considering the Gritomatic Silicon Carbide for EdgePro, or, Gritomatic Boride CS-HD silicon carbide, or, an Idahone ceramic aluminum oxide set. There are a dizzying variety of other types of course such as the Hapstone Ruby Ceramic, natural, ceramic... A link to a discussion of these that you've found very accurate including the "feel" and wear characteristics of the stone would be appreciated.

O Ourorboros - question - are the silicon carbide stones also called water stones?

Having tried the inexpensive DMT (with plastic "holes") and an inexpensive Mercer Culinary 1000/3000 waterstone, I much prefer the "feel" of the water stone free hand moving the knife over it, it is very soothing. However, I was terrible at keeping a consistent angle! Hence, I am now shopping for a guided angle system, one which like Hapstone, EdgePro or KME can take a wide variety of stones in the 6" EdgePro form factor.

T tiguy7 - thank you, I should have said HRC not RC in my original post! Still learning!

Two questions for T tiguy7 - first, I am a little confused about Shapton Glass stones being Al2O3, I had understood Shapton lasted the longest as a synthetic stone, but my other research showed that Silicon Carbide stones last longer (in general) than the aluminum oxide. Does all this (wear of stone, speed of sharpening, type of edge produced) really depend as much on the density of abrasive material and quality of substrate/binder, etc., as much as the chemical composition and molecular shape of the abrasive, and so I should not be considering silicon carbide vs. aluminum oxide per se, but the actual stone brand and type?

Second - what type of "feel and sound" does a Shapton Glass have when used with a splash of water? I know it won't develop the slurry of a lower grade water stone like the Mercer Culinary which partly contributed to the feel / sound that for me, I liked a great deal.

Third Q for everyone - I realize stones are all tradeoffs of different characteristics and not entirely orthogonal characteristics, i.e. a stone that develops the sharpest edge on a microscopic level, might not develop the longest wearing edge on the knife, and it depends on the steel being sharpened. My three dimensions to optimize are A, B, C and to sharpen, in a guided angle system, a Zwilling Henckels Twin forged kitchen knives for everyday use - a "cheap" set of knives as expensive knives go, but a bit above dollar-store quality:

A. a "slow wearing" stone - one doesn't wear quickly - which feels a bit like the water-and-stone-slurry feel of the inexpensive Mercer Culinary, but emphasis on slow wearing which will not require lapping often, and it last a long time to save money. In the guided angle knife sharpening systems, it is a small surface area for the stone and even smaller volume of the stone, and so, to save money, I definitely want a stone that will last a long time even if it is more expensive to begin with. I think that would lean towards diamond in resin substrate but, I gather these don't have the feel / sound of SiCarbide or AlOxide.

B. A stone that sharpens fairly quickly and without a great deal of skill, as I am lazy.

C. A stone that develops an edge which is long wearing.

I would from what I've learned just today, not want to go above 1000 grit. And, a definite plus if it's a type of stone where I could mostly use a single grit stone rather than needing a series, once I have restored a bevel to a consistent angle and undone the damage from my hand-sharpening attempts, given B above.

Like pretty much any diamond stone, the oddball Nanohone "stones" aside, the Venevs are not much fun to sharpen on, compared to the (IMO) glorious creamy feel of something like a Shapton Glass 1000 or Shapton Pro 1500, two of my favorite synthetics, or even compared to almost any non-diamond waterstone you could name. What they are, though, is effective with supersteels. Not fast, a little slower than Shapton glass, but effective.

Regarding ZDP-189, if you are sharpening for a toothy edge, aluminum oxide will work fine, but I found it a very annoying steel to sharpen, until I got a vitrified diamond stone and started putting all of my supersteel pocketknives on that. Let's skip that option, you're not using those steels, and vitrified diamond stones are very expensive. Venev is an excellent diamond waterstone that is not too expensive compared to others.

As for wear, the important point is that with the exception of the very muddy (loose bond intended to release abrasive readily) or very coarse (each particle is larger, so you go through the stone quicker as new ones are released from the bond), pretty much any waterstone will last much longer than pretty much any plate-with-diamonds-attached. Getting finer details depends a lot on the stone involved. I am still using the Shapton Glass 1000 I got 30 years ago, even though I use it a lot. The Shapton Glass stones look thin, but are very dense and firmly bonded.

Note that I have not compared silicon carbide stone wear with aluminum oxide. That's because it's the bonding agent that makes the difference in stone wear, not the abrasive. A waterstone is in effect a system engineered to release fresh grit, and the stone wears down as grit is released.

Your biggest enemy for wear will likely be the tendency of the newcomer to sharpening to use far too much pressure.

I am very fond of the creamy feel of the Shapton Glass stones (500 and above; the coarser ones feel different), my favorite synthetics from a tactile enjoyment point of view, and from a number of other points of view. However, there are a lot of different opinions out there about favored waterstones, and there are many people who will say that the Shapton Glass stones give no feedback. It's not true, but what is true is that they do not give the kind of scratchy reassurance about what you are doing that, say, a Naniwa Chosera Pro 800 gives (for sure), and the silicon carbide stones you mentioned (probably, have not used them, so am guessing). Instead they give a subtle feedback that, when you approach the limit of what that stone can do, vanishes, so it feels like you're skating on ice. This is the kind of signal a good medium-grit JNat gives too.

If I were starting over from scratch, armed with my preferences, and wanted to put together a practical set for kitchen knives, I would probably get:

Shapton Pro 1500 - Great do-everything stone for kitchen knives, and the plastic box it comes in is designed to be used a stand
Shapton Glass 500 - It's useful to have something at this grit when you're doing something more aggressive than just making a knife sharp again, and this is many people's favorite stone in the whole Shapton Glass line

Both of these fit your slow-wearing, infrequent-lapping criteria. Assuming you've done your part by sharpening to a real edge, appropriately toothy, with no burr, a long-wearing edge is in the hands of the composition and heat treat of the knife steel, and how you use it in the kitchen, not your stone choice.

And some 3000 stone for the Japanese knives. Shapton Glass 3000, maybe, but I've gotten to a point where I use so little pressure at this grit that the dense abrasive of the SG series makes an extremely smooth edge, no teeth. So I'd probably get the Chosera Pro 3000.

And then, being still me, I would probably buy a ton more stones and wind up with a collection the size of what I have now...

Oh, and you will need something to lap the stones. All waterstones wear, even if you pick one that does so slowly. A diamond plate (no holes) is perfect for this, something like a worn-out 600 is about ideal.

A guided sharpener would change the conversation considerably, partly because the stone options are so different. Those ceramic stones can be really slow and I would not go that way personally. SC, AlOx, diamond, CBN. The "feel" of the stone doesn't matter much when using a guided sharpener.

 

[Triple_D]

I use these 10" DMT plates, and I use them hard. I've spent hours and hours flatting the back of chisels and plane blades on them (some new, and some really used and abused), and then I use them with the honing guide to re-profile and/or sharpen the chisels/plane blades. I also use them for sharpening knives. I use window cleaner for a lubricant. And they still work great. No sign of the diamonds wearing off. So perhaps the issues are only with the DMT Diafold models? I don't know. But mine have been great.

Edit: I also use(d) these diamond plates for sharpening my Zwilling/Henckels kitchen knives. But about a month ago, I picked up a KME sharpening system, and have been using it (which also uses diamond plates) to sharpen all of my knives, now. Diamonds work for me.

 

[Ourorboros]

Silicon Carbide stones are not generally called water stones. Norton is the most well know brand of Silicon Carbide stones. The color is generally black or a shade of dark grey.
The best known brands of water stones are Shapton, Naniwa, and King. They use an abrasive - most often Aluminum Oxide (AlOx) embedded in another medium. They get their name from using water as a lubricant rather than oil or being used dry. There are many good brands, but generally your best bet are the Japanese ones and not associated with a knife company. Ask on a forum first, since there are many low cost ones that are probably low in abrasive.
There are a variety of water stones available for guided systems, certainly Shapton and Naniwa/Chosera.

 

[r172eg]

I use these 10" DMT plates, and I use them hard. I've spent hours and hours flatting the back of chisels and plane blades on them (some new, and some really used and abused), and then I use them with the honing guide to re-profile and/or sharpen the chisels/plane blades. I also use them for sharpening knives. I use window cleaner for a lubricant. And they still work great. No sign of the diamonds wearing off. So perhaps the issues are only with the DMT Diafold models? I don't know. But mine have been great.
...

For others who may read this thread later - I should mention your photos show the DMT DuoSharp Benchstone. To be fair to DMT I had tried the least expensive DMT Diamond Whetstone which is half the price and a smaller 6" stone which would wear more quickly for the same number of knives (less stone area per unit knife edge sharpened). Not sure if the quality differs, the 8" DuoSharp is 1.75x the area of the 6" Diamond Whetstone, and about 2x price, perhaps also a higher grade of diamond adhesion / more diamond in the diamond layer. I also just realized my "German" Zwilling Henckels Twin forged Friodur Ice are actually made in Spain! Which apparently is a lower grade of steel than the ones that are made in Germany.

... about a month ago, I picked up a KME sharpening system, and have been using it (which also uses diamond plates) to sharpen all of my knives, now. Diamonds work for me.

Which DMT grit / mesh do you use to re-sharpen your Zwilling Henckels?

 

[r172eg]

There are a variety of water stones available for guided systems, certainly Shapton and Naniwa/Chosera.

Thank you, I will look into this.

 

[r172eg]

Like pretty much any diamond stone, the oddball Nanohone "stones" aside, the Venevs are not much fun to sharpen on, compared to the (IMO) glorious creamy feel of something like a Shapton Glass 1000 or Shapton Pro 1500, two of my favorite synthetics, or even compared to almost any non-diamond waterstone you could name. What they are, though, is effective with supersteels. Not fast, a little slower than Shapton glass, but effective.

Regarding ZDP-189, if you are sharpening for a toothy edge, aluminum oxide will work fine, but I found it a very annoying steel to sharpen, until I got a vitrified diamond stone and started putting all of my supersteel pocketknives on that. Let's skip that option, you're not using those steels, and vitrified diamond stones are very expensive. Venev is an excellent diamond waterstone that is not too expensive compared to others.

Very thorough and helpful information UncleBoots, you are teaching me a lot! I greatly appreciate your careful answer. I have much to learn. Maybe one day I'd like to try a knife with a sushi cutting edge, not toothy, but for now definitely a toothy edge microscopic is what I am looking for, for easy everyday kitchen cutting.

An aside - once I had a friend who was a professional chef and he didn't care about knife sharpness at all! He just used his skill with any old knife, even using the point to bend open things (!), so I know this is more about my wanting a sharp edge for its own technical appreciation than, say, being able to cook better.

As for wear, the important point is that with the exception of the very muddy (loose bond intended to release abrasive readily) or very coarse (each particle is larger, so you go through the stone quicker as new ones are released from the bond), pretty much any waterstone will last much longer than pretty much any plate-with-diamonds-attached. Getting finer details depends a lot on the stone involved. I am still using the Shapton Glass 1000 I got 30 years ago, even though I use it a lot. The Shapton Glass stones look thin, but are very dense and firmly bonded.

Wow! 30 years is amazing.

Note that I have not compared silicon carbide stone wear with aluminum oxide. That's because it's the bonding agent that makes the difference in stone wear, not the abrasive. A waterstone is in effect a system engineered to release fresh grit, and the stone wears down as grit is released.

Your biggest enemy for wear will likely be the tendency of the newcomer to sharpening to use far too much pressure.

Thanks, important for the guided angle system where leverage might increase the pressure more than my attempts at free-hand sharpening.

I am very fond of the creamy feel of the Shapton Glass stones (500 and above; the coarser ones feel different), my favorite synthetics from a tactile enjoyment point of view, and from a number of other points of view. However, there are a lot of different opinions out there about favored waterstones, and there are many people who will say that the Shapton Glass stones give no feedback. It's not true, but what is true is that they do not give the kind of scratchy reassurance about what you are doing that, say, a Naniwa Chosera Pro 800 gives (for sure), and the silicon carbide stones you mentioned (probably, have not used them, so am guessing). Instead they give a subtle feedback that, when you approach the limit of what that stone can do, vanishes, so it feels like you're skating on ice. This is the kind of signal a good medium-grit JNat gives too.

Beautiful description of the tactile feedback! Much for me to read up on when I have some time, before buying these.

If I were starting over from scratch, armed with my preferences, and wanted to put together a practical set for kitchen knives, I would probably get:

Shapton Pro 1500 - Great do-everything stone for kitchen knives, and the plastic box it comes in is designed to be used a stand
Shapton Glass 500 - It's useful to have something at this grit when you're doing something more aggressive than just making a knife sharp again, and this is many people's favorite stone in the whole Shapton Glass line

Both of these fit your slow-wearing, infrequent-lapping criteria. Assuming you've done your part by sharpening to a real edge, appropriately toothy, with no burr, a long-wearing edge is in the hands of the composition and heat treat of the knife steel, and how you use it in the kitchen, not your stone choice.

And some 3000 stone for the Japanese knives. Shapton Glass 3000, maybe, but I've gotten to a point where I use so little pressure at this grit that the dense abrasive of the SG series makes an extremely smooth edge, no teeth. So I'd probably get the Chosera Pro 3000.

If I understand then, factors affecting the amount of steel worn away, durability of the stone itself, and toothiness of the edge created include: the density of the abrasive material, the type (chemical composition) of abrasive material, the binding agent's friability, and the shape of the abrasive material. So lots and lots of variables! Even before knife sharpening technique is introduced (number of passes each direction, forming the burr, hand held or guided system, skill of person using that technique!, quality of guided system / accuracy of angle / clamping system).

And then, being still me, I would probably buy a ton more stones and wind up with a collection the size of what I have now...

Oh, and you will need something to lap the stones. All waterstones wear, even if you pick one that does so slowly. A diamond plate (no holes) is perfect for this, something like a worn-out 600 is about ideal.

For lapping the stone - I've also read of people who use 220 grit 3M wet/dry sandpaper, a new sheet on a fully flat surface, and turn the stone upside down to level it that way (moving stone over the paper). And another technique of a glass plate with an abrasive powder, and also moving the stone over the lapping surface, as opposed to the classical method of moving a lapping stone / I have not found much yet on flattening stones or flattening plates for different types of sharpening stone / water stones, other than absolute flatness is essential and so, a diamond plate over a rigid metal substrate is the best. I'd like to keep my entire system price close to $400 including guided angle system, stones, and a scissor accessory so that is not a lot of budget for a quality guided angle system, I think $500 is actually what this will cost with only one set of stones. Later, of course, I'd like to try more types of stones! My wife however, is not as enthusiastic about my new obsession.

A guided sharpener would change the conversation considerably, partly because the stone options are so different. Those ceramic stones can be really slow and I would not go that way personally. SC, AlOx, diamond, CBN. The "feel" of the stone doesn't matter much when using a guided sharpener.

That is helpful to know, I was almost about to settle on Shapton Glass EdgePro form factor (still have to decide the guided angle system but I decided on the EdgePro type form factor for variety of stones/plates), for the potential of a small tactile benefit (not as much as freehand). But the whole purpose of guided angle is faster, efficient. So maybe SC, AlOx, diamond, or CBN for the guided angle system stones - perhaps AlOx given all the wisdom shared here from you and others would be best for me. And, maybe, one Shapton Glass Pro 1500 with a good holder, for freehand so I can practice over time building up my freehand skills on one knife, or even as the objective of that stone is just practicing free hand technique and building muscle memory on controlling angle and technique, the highest grit Shapton Glass so I won't remove much metal from the blade and picking one knife as a "practice free hand sharpening on" knife.

 

[r172eg]

edit - corrected my mis-spelling in the thread title!

 

[Triple_D]

I also just realized my "German" Zwilling Henckels Twin forged Friodur Ice are actually made in Spain! Which apparently is a lower grade of steel than the ones that are made in Germany.

I wonder when the move to Spain was made, because I purchased my Zwilling Henckels knives 30 years ago (or close to it), in the early 1990's.

Edit: I did some quick research. According to one article I ran across, the "Zwilling J.A. Henckels" line is made in Germany. The "J.A. Henckels International" line is made in Germany and Spain. Mine are part of the first group, made in Germany.

Which DMT grit / mesh do you use to re-sharpen your Zwilling Henckels?

I use the stones in their basic kit. I start with their 140 grit stone and progress to 300, 600, and 1500. Then I use my home made strop and green compound.

 

[UncleBoots]

For lapping the stone - I've also read of people who use 220 grit 3M wet/dry sandpaper, a new sheet on a fully flat surface, and turn the stone upside down to level it that way (moving stone over the paper). And another technique of a glass plate with an abrasive powder, and also moving the stone over the lapping surface, as opposed to the classical method of moving a lapping stone / I have not found much yet on flattening stones or flattening plates for different types of sharpening stone / water stones, other than absolute flatness is essential and so, a diamond plate over a rigid metal substrate is the best. I'd like to keep my entire system price close to $400 including guided angle system, stones, and a scissor accessory so that is not a lot of budget for a quality guided angle system, I think $500 is actually what this will cost with only one set of stones. Later, of course, I'd like to try more types of stones! My wife however, is not as enthusiastic about my new obsession.

Oh absolutely. SiC powder on a glass plate or granite tile is a perfectly reasonable way to flatten, and by far the cheapest way. Sandpaper on glass/granite is fine, too, used wet, but you may go through a lot of it. I like to sprinkle some SiC powder on the sandpaper; it seems like a cheap way of getting more out of one sheet, and our of your investment of elbow grease. I recommend placing this rig on a floor or sidewalk; I think I get more pressure, more easily that way.

I didn't think of this immediately because there are really two things that can be meant by flattening, and I only thought of one of them. If you have an unflat stone that needs some serious work, yes, grit, flat surface, high pressure, drawing a grid in pencil frequently to see if you're flat yet. If you want to continuously keep the stone flat, to avoid that process, it's nice to have a diamond plate you can rub over the stone regularly, to keep it flat. Not mandatory, just nice.