Slipjoints or lockers for hard cutting? (Swinden key issue?)

[pinnah]

Do you all find that locking folders handle hard wood cutting chores better than slip joints, or are my problems with slip joints due to me using an inadequate slippie?

Some context... Early summer in my yard means cutting back low hanging branches and bushes. Hand clippers are perfect for this but I don't always have them in my pocket when I'm out working. I always have a pocket knife though. Small limbs get cut back using the bend and slice method. I'm having an easier time with my lockers and my slip joint has a hard time keeping up.

Summer also means chipmunks. I was setting up our 5 gallon bucket and 2x4 ramp trap last night and needed to cut some grooves in the 2x4 to hold some seeds and so, as a test, I cut some with my slip joint and others with some of my lockers. Again, I could go after the wood better with the lockers.

IMPORTANT NOTE AT THE CORE OF MY QUESTION: My slip joint is an old Ulster camper. The Ulster uses the Swinden key construction, which isn't known to be the most rugged joint style.

One thing I'm wondering is if I would find a more traditional peened pin slip joint more robust and confidence inspiring when doing hard work. But, the amount of attention paid to "blade wobble" with slip joints makes me also wonder if locker just aren't more robust all together.

To give an idea of knives I'm talking about, they are (in order below): Schrade 5OT lockback, Opinel #8 (drop point), Ulster Camper. There's just no question - the 5OT and #8 are much better at heavy wood cutting tasks.

Would any slip joint be able to keep up?

Schrade 5OT - This knife does great with heavy wood cutting, despite its short blade.

schrade-5ot by Pinnah, on Flickr

Opinel #8 drop-point (center knife) - This does a great job with heavy wood cutting too.

opinel easy opens by Pinnah, on Flickr

Ulster Camper - This knife seems to have a harder time. Or I have a harder time with it. Can't really go after stuff as confidently. Same size as the 5OT

Modified Ulster Camper by Pinnah, on Flickr

 

[kvaughn]

It seems likely that the blade edge geometry/shape would effect the cutting ability more than the construction of the knife/handle.IMHO.KV

 

[pinnah]

I should probably say more about the specific problems I'm having with my slip joint.

BLADE MOVEMENT WHEN SLICING - In his books on camping skills, Cliff Jacobsen notes that cutting goes more smoothly when the blade is drawn through the wood with a slicing motion. I definitely notice this. The problem is that when going after tough wood, the blade of all of my knives can get hung up in the wood when the grain is tight. Same thing happens with axe heads. The problem I have with my slip joint is that when the blade starts to bind and I'm slicing, I get the feeling that the pivot is starting to engage. Typically what is happening is that the blade is starting to bind while my hand is rebounding off the handle and that retraction of the hand is allowing/causing the feeling that the knife wants to close a teeny bit. Very disconcerting.

TWISTING THE BLADE & CREATING WOBBLE- Ok, I admit it. I treat my knives hard. When the knife is starting to bind, I'm likely to give it a bit of a twist. The Opinel and Schrade 5OT (and my Buck 500, 112 and 110) take this sort of abuse with no sign of developing any side to side wobble. The Ulster though... has developed wobble and I don't push it nearly as hard as my lockers.

The question is, is the wobble just something associated with Swinden key or equivalently, would a more robust slip joint be able to stand up to this sort of rough treatment?

 

[kamagong]

Have you ever considered using a fixed blade? They are superior to both lockers and slipjoints for the cutting tasks you mentioned. Since you are just puttering around the house, carrying them shouldn't be an issue.

- Christian

 

[Bastid]

Depends on what you are used to. If you are used to using a slipjoint there is no problem, if there are fears that what is being done would cause the blade to fold up on your hand a locking knife would be a better choice (and there are locking slipjoints out there also.)

Lots of choices for us form fixed to all types of folders. Pick the one that works for you.

 

[yablanowitz]

From looking at a disassembled Swinden key knife (Old Timer folding hunter), I'd say the Swinden key knife is less likely to fail altogether than a conventionally pinned knife, although you can't easily correct excessive clearance by squeezing the knife in a vise.

 

[jackknife]

I know this question comes up a lot, and I have my own feelings on it. In my life experience, a slip joint pocket knife is very capable of doing hard work. I've used nothing but a slip joint my whole life for most of my cutting, and that has included carpentry work, construction work, and machine shop work. For many years a Buck stockman was my only pocket knife I used everyday. It held up fine on job sites doing a variety of army engineer jobs on four continents as well as many years in a machine shop after. Wood, burlap bags, plastic blister packs, garden work, breaking down cardboard boxes, all on a regular basis.

I've used an Opinel as a brush clearing tool using the bend and slice method you describe, and it's still tight. I've found the Opinel to be a rugged knife way out of expectations. If your Opinel is not out slicing your Schrade then something is very wrong. The means of construction would not have that much to do with slicing ability, and a lock or no lock has nothing to do with ruggedness under heavy use. One of the best gardening knifes I've ever used was a German built Tina, and it was robust enough to stand up to very heavy use that wold kill some lock blades.

Sharpen up those knives and try again, and see it the Opinel and Ulstser do not output the Schrade locker. That Ulster has a very nice wide flat ground blade, and it should out slice the Schrade very easy. It's more about blade geometry than construction of the knife. The old U.S. made Schrade Old Timer's were tyne key construction, and they were slicing demons. Thin flat ground 1095 carbon blades had a cult following among hard working blue collar men, and those were all slip joints.

Carl.

 

[pinnah]

For many years a Buck stockman was my only pocket knife I used everyday. It held up fine on job sites doing a variety of army engineer jobs on four continents as well as many years in a machine shop after.

Camillus made or Schrade made?

The slight sensation that the non-locking blade will close on me is something I think I can learn to adjust to.

But... The increasing amounts of blade wobble I'm getting in the Ulster is worrisome and annoying. I love the knife and want to keep for a long time but may need to relegate it to light office duty.

If your Opinel is not out slicing your Schrade then something is very wrong.

All three knives are hair popping sharp. Not scary sharp, but hair popping so. I use a Lansky at 20 degrees on all of them and they're reasonably well stropped. Not perfect but good. The 5OT's blade is either flat or so close to flat that I can't see any concave to it. The blade stock is almost the same as the Ulster's but it's narrower spine to edge, so if it's flat, it's flat at a steeper angle. On both the Schrade and the Opinel (convex ground), I broke in both blades at 17 degrees before putting the 20 degree working edge on them. [Yes, I should give convex sharpening more of a concerted effort but...]

The means of construction would not have that much to do with slicing ability, and a lock or no lock has nothing to do with ruggedness under heavy use.

I confounded things by talking about the non-locking aspects perhaps. I'm primarily worried about the lateral wobble getting worse and the knife failing.

I should mention that I have an another Ulster BSA knife I had since I was a kid and I abused the screw driver end so badly that a bolster popped off (shows the key assembly clearly) and the key pivot is very, very lose on that end. Massive wobble. I don't treat my knives nicely. Like I said, I'm prone to give them a bit of a twist as the blade binds up in the wood and I think that's what's causing the wobble to develop.

I may need to start looking for a pinned camper. Maybe a Camillus.

I think the wobble is the worst of the issues for me.

@Bastid, you're right about the fixed blade. If I didn't live in the suburbs, it would be easier. Scares folks when I run to hardware store. My Opinel goes in my pocket. I should mention, the Opinel and Schrade do fanstastically. I have no problems with them in anyway.

Really wondering if any slip joint can keep up with them though. The Ulster is dying in front of my eyes.


Thanks for the help all.

 

[jackknife]

My Buck stockman was a Camillus made one, according to Chuck Buck whom I met at the Knoxville knife show in 1988 or 89. I'm not familiar with the Swindon Key construction, never having owned a Schrade or Ulster. My first knife given to me by my dad was a Camillus scout knife that stood up to many ears of use until I joined the army. My son still has it, and uses it just for yuks now and then, and it's still in good shape.

Yes, sometimes cutting thicker wood, I feel a little give when I pull it back, but it's the nature of the beast. It's a slip joint, so there's going to be a bit of play if you pull back while cutting wood or cardboard. As long as your aware of it, and know your tool, no problem. As you say, it's just a slight sensation that you get used to.

I don't know what degree my Opinels are sharpened, I just free hand them at a shallow angle. I do know that they are my best cutters for heavy duty use in the outdoors. They should out cut the Schrade lock blade by a good amount.

Carl.

 

[Brasso3]

I don't trust lockbacks, and neither should you. In my opinion, they are only a safety. Not foolproof. If you're going to get that aggressive, use a fixed blade. I haven't seen a lockback yet that couldn't be closed if you try hard enough. My Sebbie is darn close to foolproof, but it's still not a fixed blade. Just my opinion.

 

[Will Power]

For some of the garden tasks you mention, I'd suggest getting a Hawkbill Pruner or a Sheepfoot blade. They're ideal for an angled slicing cut, exactly the sort you need to whip through branches, safely. Hawkbills often have wide rounded handles offering a good purchase, this too is another reason the Opinel is so versatile. A Sheepfoot blade will make those nicks in wood you wrote about with ease.

 

[jacktrades_nbk]

I've used in that way, without any blade play problems, knives like opinel, douk douk and victorinox.
I've also used a lot of lock knives, and i'll say the screw pivot makes blade play much easier to fix.
How about an alox soldier/pioneer/farmer ? it would be strong enough to hold to some lateral twist from my experience, and it is a slipjoint resembling the camper anyway.
Or try others,... a current production buck stockman seems to be a tough one, and i think any slipjoint that is 4 inches or more closed should take some abuse.
But, for hard wood cutting, twisting, and so on, i'll always choose/prefer a fixed blade, be it small or big, and no folders, slipjoints or not.

I think a buck 112 for example will take much more than a medium stockman, be it the same size overall, not because of the lock, but because of the massive pin and brass bolsters, big handle and thicker blade with a longer tang inside the, again, big, thicker handle.
Opposite to the buck 112 example, the opinel is lighter but has quite a strong construction behind, with a big steel pin, hammered on a steel collar that wraps the wood, and another steel ring around it. If bended in use, the wood will flex a bit, and return, making blade play harder to develop from that kind of use.

Anyway, in my humble opinion, mostly any slipjoint, due to the design and the pinned construction, specifically with flushed pins, will always be more prone to develop some play if abused enough. Some, that have flattened pins, or not flushed with the bolsters, could be more stronger, like saks for example.
Those that have more massive, thicker bolsters and bigger pins are more stronger than the regular slipjoint, as it is obvious.
Having said that, using slipjoints for a job that kinda requires a fixed blade would go against the 'right tool for the job' philosophy.
But having a lock on a knife will not make it take more abuse, or save it from developing blade play.

 

[knarfeng]

Do you all find that locking folders handle hard wood cutting chores better than slip joints...

Not really. I grew up using slip joint knives. As long as I'm cutting and not trying to poke a hole, I'm good with using a slip joint. And if I have a sheepsfoot blade, I don't mind poking holes with a slip joint, either.

 

[300Bucks]

The first Buck stockmen were Schrade made, Swinden Key blade pivots. Boy, were they nice looking but they did have some issues with the brass pivot pins and brass liners defroming leaving what I call "blade flop" conditions. Buck had a rough time honoring their lifetime warranty with those Schrades. So they switched to Camillus made folders with thru pins of nickel silver and SS. Then if a blade broke and needed replaced you just drive out the pin, replace the blade and put in a new pin and buff. Those old Schrades were good knives, if you used them with kindness. Modern thru pin construction knives are much tougher.

Take a look at the photos in this old thread from the Buck forum for your PHd on this subject.............300Bucks

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...nfo-fromSMKWs-seminars?highlight=Schrade+300s


Here is an additional photo of Swinden key construction. Left end of knife was sliced for photo enlargements.

Here is cut-away of modern Buck with integral SS liners and thru pins.

 

[richstag]

Hi Pinnah,

I didn't read all the comments posted yet so forgive me if I repeat something. I have an opinel and a 50T. A simple GEC 73 will run circles around both as far as feeling strong and solid.

The lock to non lock comes down to how you use your knife. Of course you want a lock if you aren't making strictly pull type cuts (etc).

Kevin