Smaller Knife, Thinner Sheath Leather?

redsquid2

redsquid2

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Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I have made about eight knives so far.

I am fairly new at making sheathes, but I enjoy doing it. I like the 8-9 oz leather to make pouch sheathes for bigger knives. I like the stiffness of it, which naturally results in good retention. However, I am currently making very small knives, like OAL of 5 1/2" - 6". I want to make sandwich sheathes for horizontal belt carry. Does it make sense to use a thinner leather for this? I got some 7-8 [correction 6-7] oz leather from Midwest Knife Supply.

Thanks,

--Andy/squid
 
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Think of it this way:

Why do you use heavier leather to make your larger sheaths - To keep the sharp blade and you separate - Right?
If you wouldn't put a long sharp blade in thin leather, why would you put a short sharp blade in it.
A small sharp blade will cut through thin leather just as easily as a longer blade will.
 
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by sandwhich sheath. Does it rely on friction for retention? If so then I'd recommend using the thicker leather. The first sheath I made was a pouch for a Mora #1, out of the 8"x11" leather you can buy at Hobby Lobby. It's probably 4-5 oz. Anyways it quickly stretched in use to the point it will no longer hold the knife upside down.

If it uses a strap or something for retention then the thinner leather might make sense. 8-9 oz leather can get ridiculously bulky with a small knife.
 
I prefer to use lighter leather with smaller knives the bulk of the large leather can overwhelm the knife, aesthetically speaking. However this being said I never construct my fixed blade sheaths without a welt. The welt protects the stitching and keeps you from getting stitches:). I use 8oz for my welts, adds the same protection as having the whole sheath out of 8oz but with far less bulk. Just my thoughts.
 
I agree with tyecop15's technique. A sheath without a welt is trouble waiting to happen, but you can make a sheath sleeker as he suggests, without sacrificing safety.
I've seen several big-name sheathes for 4" blades that are 4 or 5 layers thick, and just don't get it.
 
Stick with the thicker leather to ensure rigidity. A soft floppy sheath of any thickness can be a hazard depending on the type of carry.

Another option is look into a thin kydex covered in thin leather. I personally dont like kydex because of the wear it puts on metal parts but it is a effective sheath and holster material and can look like a leather sheath if covered and done nicely.
 
I also make sheaths for smaller knives out of thinner leather so that the package is right. however, when using the lighter leather for the sides of the sheath {most are pouch style} I use the thickest piece of leather I can find for the welt. the thicker welt will add rididity. and since most of my blades have a guard, and I build a cam into the welt, the knife cant move unless you make it, so with the thicker welt, it works. about the only time Id be worried is if you wer making a sheath where the blade was in a carry position where it was subjected to stress on the sides, like a horizontal style on the front of your belt where if you bent over, your stomch and the tops of your legs sandwhiched the sheath. but for a regular hip sheath, on a smaller and shorter knife, shouldnt be a problem unless you have very form fitting seats in your car.
 
I've just started making sheaths's also, I've made one fixed blade sheath and three folder sheaths. When I ordered supplies from Zack White Leather he sent me a sample piece of 6-7oz. Bull hide that seems to be stiffer than the 8-9oz. Veg tanned I have. The others above are most likely correct about thickness and safety etc. But for a small to medium size folder sheath I think I'm going to order some of the 6-7oz. Bull hide.
 
I've pondered about this as well. Since I have only had a stock of 6-7 oz leather, that's all I use. I find that's a good weight for my smaller knives(4-5"), and its still plenty thick for protective purposes. If I have a large blade I often add a layer of leather split to the inside to add rigidity and achieve proper proportion. If I add an inlay, I'll also add a (needed) inner layer of split.

joe444 said:
...when using the lighter leather for the sides of the sheath {most are pouch style} I use the thickest piece of leather I can find for the welt.
Click to expand...

Joe - I've found that your technique produces a loose blade fit.... not edge to spine-wise, but side to side.... with both pouch and sandwich designs. I try to match the blade thickness with the welt. I find this more important for sandwich style though.

I had blades slice right through the sheath face or back of two early sheaths(years ago) when I used thinner hide(4-5 oz). I now appreciate the stiffness and added strength of the thicker hide for any size blade.

Peter
 
Just for background info, I make, on average, 6-7 sheaths a week for private customers and production knife makers. At the Blade Show, there were over 75 of my sheaths on tables. These were all sizes, shapes and weights of blades. All that does not make me an "expert", just shows experience with knives and leather. Best thought on this is to suggest investing in a "How to" video from Chuck Burrows or Paul Long. These guys are experts in this field and will show how and why they do things with leather. With that said, I use only 7/8oz. leather on the majority of sheaths. With some smaller, lighter blades the 6/7oz. will work well. The weight (means thickness) of the leather has nothing to do with retention. The quality of the leather and the construction mean everything in looks and safety. All types of sheaths must have a welt to assure safe carry. With the lighter leather, I do use a thicker welt. Biggest problem with inexpensive leather is that it will be way to soft to make a good rigid sheath. Yes, I realize that spending $65 for a top quality veg-tan double shoulder doesn't make sense for a guy who makes 3-4 sheaths a year, but that leather will be tons easier to work and will make a vastly superior sheath.
I buy a lot of hardware from Zach White and they're a good supplier. Be sure that the bull hide is veg-tan, anything other than veg-tan will cause stains on steel including stainless. Feel free to email me or send a PM if anyone has questions.
 
Another thing I just thought of is you could use some horse butts also. Its vegtan and is thinner for the same strength as comparable cowhide. You can get it at springfield leather for like $12 a piece which should make several sheaths. Rick may have some experience with it and may be able to add more. I like using it for holsters that are IWB because its a little thinner but holds its shape really well. It is a little harder to form because it is denser and doesnt always take water as well but thats not as big a deal for knife sheaths usually.

Just a thought.
 
Horse hide is a really fine option in most cases. It is denser with a finer fiber than cow. Finished product has a very smooth look. I used to buy it from Siegles of Ca. when on sale. Most of the time it was a bit too pricey for general work. Good thought!
 
This is what I came up with, using 8-9 oz cow hide. I decided to make a horizontal belt sheath, because I had never made one before. It's got tight retention. Does it look practical/useful?

7762943528_14f25d7971_h.jpg


7762937440_fa4ef9ca9a_h.jpg



Thanks to everybody who chimed in. I am surprised at the number of replies.
 
Its a good start. I am not sure if you want suggestions to help improve your leather work or not,

with your belt loop one you can make it simpler by leaving out the boxes of stitching. Your strength is going to be just as strong as the line stitch in front of them. You can do double lines and what not to give it a little more support and I think it will be easier to accomplish. Make things simple when you start out. With your wet molding there are alot of things that help improve it but for one make sure your leather is cased properly. Get it nice and wet then let it dry for a while so the core of the leather is damp and the outside is starting to dry out a bit. Then when you form it the leather will hold the form and lines you put into it better. Then leave it to dry for a while. You can make some real nice burnishing tools out of pieces of hardwood like cocobolo and rosewood, things of that nature.

The stitching sometimes when you wet form will have a tendency to want to sink into the leather, I usually dont try and cut my stitching grooves to deep, usually the pull from you stitching will sink the thread in enough to keep it protected. If you have a narrow burnisher you can run that over the stitching while wet forming and it will help keep the leather from wanting to walk over it.

I would take Ricks advice and get one of the books he suggested. That being said I am sure that guy will last many years of hard use. Here are a couple of other ideas for ya to play with, made them a few years back and they were both prototypes so they did need adjustments and refinement of the overall design. These were meant to be worn behind the back so to put them on the button straps made it much easier. The middle one is a pancake style which is pretty cool, a guy at leatherworker.net makes some that are really nice. The only drawback is you have to take your belt off to put one of these on.

C.D. front.jpgpancake style sheath front.jpgresized front shut.jpg
 
quint said:
Its a good start. I am not sure if you want suggestions to help improve your leather work or not,

with your belt loop one you can make it simpler by leaving out the boxes of stitching. Your strength is going to be just as strong as the line stitch in front of them. You can do double lines and what not to give it a little more support and I think it will be easier to accomplish. Make things simple when you start out. With your wet molding there are alot of things that help improve it but for one make sure your leather is cased properly. Get it nice and wet then let it dry for a while so the core of the leather is damp and the outside is starting to dry out a bit. Then when you form it the leather will hold the form and lines you put into it better. Then leave it to dry for a while. You can make some real nice burnishing tools out of pieces of hardwood like cocobolo and rosewood, things of that nature.

The stitching sometimes when you wet form will have a tendency to want to sink into the leather, I usually dont try and cut my stitching grooves to deep, usually the pull from you stitching will sink the thread in enough to keep it protected. If you have a narrow burnisher you can run that over the stitching while wet forming and it will help keep the leather from wanting to walk over it.

I would take Ricks advice and get one of the books he suggested. That being said I am sure that guy will last many years of hard use. Here are a couple of other ideas for ya to play with, made them a few years back and they were both prototypes so they did need adjustments and refinement of the overall design. These were meant to be worn behind the back so to put them on the button straps made it much easier. The middle one is a pancake style which is pretty cool, a guy at leatherworker.net makes some that are really nice. The only drawback is you have to take your belt off to put one of these on.

View attachment 295021View attachment 295022View attachment 295023
Click to expand...

Excellent. Thanks for the feedback and the pictures. I see what you mean about the boxes of stitching.
 
That's a start and on a style that can be a problem to figure out. Quint has some good solutions that you can try with a little more experience under your belt. The major problem with the stitching comes from the leather. I'd be willing to bet it's from the belly portion of the hide. The fibers in the belly sections have been stretched through the natural processes of being a cow. It will never have the firmness to retain the shape you want. With better cuts, your stitches will seat neatly, edges won't roll and it won't have the uneven surface. This ain't criticism, just thoughts for you (and others) to build on. Take a look at the photo and you'll see another way to do a cross carry.
DSC06069.jpg
 
Rick Lowe said:
That's a start and on a style that can be a problem to figure out. Quint has some good solutions that you can try with a little more experience under your belt. The major problem with the stitching comes from the leather. I'd be willing to bet it's from the belly portion of the hide. The fibers in the belly sections have been stretched through the natural processes of being a cow. It will never have the firmness to retain the shape you want. With better cuts, your stitches will seat neatly, edges won't roll and it won't have the uneven surface. This ain't criticism, just thoughts for you (and others) to build on. Take a look at the photo and you'll see another way to do a cross carry.
View attachment 295091
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback, Mr. Lowe. I think the uneven texture came from the dying it, then the wet-forming it. I did the dying with blackberries, rubbing them and squishing them into the leather as much as possible, so the seeds probably scratched it. I did the wet forming for about 45 min. to an hour, with my fingertips, knuckles, and spring-loaded clamps. I think it was good leather, because I got it from Midwest/USA Knifemakers. However, I distressed it a lot.

As far as the stitches seating neatly, I will study your pictures to see exactly what you mean. With a quick look, I could see that your knives and sheathes are works of art. Thank you for the pointers.

Andy/squid
 
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