so how do y'all like your seax?

The WW II Cattaraugus 225Q was designed to be used edge up in fighting.:D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6510828121&category=43322 This one isn't mine but doesn't appear too be in too bad of shape although the handle looks pretty rough. Most of the leather handles do though and most have the ridges either worn or rotted off. If a man could get this one for maybe $25.00 he would be getting a helluva deal!:cool:
I wouldn't part with mine :rolleyes: :p but does have pix of the sheath that first appears to be a left handed sheath. The sheath is made to be worn on the right side so that when the knife is drawn it is automatically edge up.
The Cattaraugus 225Q was designed as and called a "Commando" knife but was mostly used as a utility combat knife.
There is quite an extensive article on the Cattaraugus 225Q in one of the yearly KNIVES books I have.
I've mentioned it several times before as this is the one the author originally thought was made from some kind of alloy steel when in reality it is plain old 1095 but 1095 that is 50-60 years old so that all the austentite has changed into martensite. I think I have that right, I always get confused when trying to recall which is which.:rolleyes: :grumpy:



.
 
some UK seax linkies:

linky1

linky2

linky3

'Twas the night after Wednesday, when all through the castle
Not a creature was brawling, not even a vassal;
The scabbards were hung by the chimney with care,
In hopes that new weaponry soon would be there;

The children were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of scimitars danced in their heads;
And mam' with her mace, and I with my flail,
Had just settled down for a long winter's ale,

When out on the field there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from the longbench - what was the matter?!
Off to the window gap, fast like a flash,
I tore up the shutters and stabbed through the sash.

The moon on the breast of the new-blooded snow
Gave the lustre of mid-day to an army below,
When, my wandering eyes saw past the moats,
A miniature cart, drawn by two tiny goats,

With a big hairy man, his beard red as flame,
Twas a wonder indeed! - I did not know his name.
More rapid than rapiers his minions they tussled,
And he roared, and shouted, as through them he muscled;

"Now, BASTARD! now, BROAD! now, BEARDED and VIKING!
On, PATTERN-WELDED! on, SCRAMASEAX STRIKING!
"Clear me a path to the top of that wall -
Cut away! hack away! slash away all!"

As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane shredded,
When they met with an obstacle, soon it was deaded,
So up to the turrets the minions they sprang,
Slaying all else with an almighty clang.

And then, in a twinkling, I heard such a clamour
The thudding and clanging of some kind of hammer
As I drew out my blade, and whirled around,
Down the chimney he came with a bound.

Dressed all in chainmaille, from head to his foot,
Underclothes tarnished with rust, grease and soot;
A bundle of weapons he'd flung on his back,
I crouched defensive - fearing attack.

His eyes -- how they glowered! his dimples quite nasty!
His cheeks were scar laden, his nose red and pasty!
His hardlined mouth grim, he was not at all merry,
His beard and his hair was red like a cherry;

And hung from a big belt encircling his belly
The sight of his hammer shook my bowels like jelly.
Bulky and tall, he was not dwarf or elf,
And I nearly did widdle, in spite of myself;

He had a red face which was thunderously creased,
Who the heck was this big hairy beast?!!
Turning his back on me, (was this a trick?
Surely that gentleman wasn't so thick...)

He spoke not a word, though I thought he'd attack,
Instead he filled scabbards; before turning back.
Taking his hammer, and lofting it high
He flew up the chimney without a goodbye.

He sprang to his goats, to his minions gave order,
And away they all charged to attack a new border.
But I heard him thunder, ere he drove out of sight,
"MERRY THOR'SDAY TO ALL, AND TO ALL A GOOD FIGHT!"

;) ~ K.J. Wright
 
Jeb - I agree with you completely and you said it well enough!

Nasty - mixed English and Hungarian Rom blood, but all familiar with knives.
 
Im glad someone agrees with me. I wonder what the people at swordforum would think of the idea?

Im mostly German, but my uncle has traced my family line back to Viking raiders who settled in the Scottish lowlands and migrated to northern Ireland years later.
 
Actually what here is reffered as seax is rather late example how these big fighting knives look liked.
This pointy knife is also western type of seax.
Eastern as slavic variant has offset handle with riveted scales and is more of chopper like machete or very oversized leuku. I have dravings of these fighting knifes, which had been found about 50 miles from my home and one is 80 cm and other 55 cm long.

They look more like this one:

http://www.frojel.com/Images/Galleries/Gotland/Images/seax33.jpg

the one just one the left side:
http://www.frojel.com/Images/Galleries/Gotland/Images/seaxaxes4.jpg

Whats interesting is that they were pieces found, which are made of damascus with welded on, or welded in high carbon steel edge, like swords, inlaid with silver BUT these are only to be found in graves of men with rather costly swords - on right side usualy - means as backup to sword. (Its useful to have sword on left side if you are right handed.)

Other thing is that I have never seen any front fitting on saex - rear yes, but no front. They are mostly without fittings at all - why to do it, if you can just take a piece of softened moose antler and nail the tang in (you can soften it with winegar).
So all the exaples with front fittings are bassically wrong reproductions.
I have seen a silver wire wired in front of bone handle of rather small knife - lets say that this would be acceptable, but not fittings.

I m a member of living history society which represents a group of 9. -10. century traders on way from Kiev to Prag.

See web fotogalery:http://skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/fotogalerie/fotogalerie.html

http://skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/10_stol/10stol.html

knives here you go :

http://skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/10_stol/noze.html
 
Hawkwind,
Awesome information and pictures! :D
I have a strange question about your screen name. Is it for the old band Hawkwind that I remember from years ago? I have three of their albums and saw your screen name and wondered if you new of them also? Talk about runing a thread off topic with that off the wall question,. Oh well, that is me. :eek:
BTW, to get back to the question. I love mine and find it a fast and fun little blade.
 
Ferrous sent me an email about a week ago saying mine was on the way (it first went straight from HI to him for etching). I can't wait 'till I can answer this question. :)
 
hawkwind said:
Actually what here is reffered as seax is rather late example how these big fighting knives look liked.

I m a member of living history society which represents a group of 9. -10. century traders on way from Kiev to Prag.

See web fotogalery:http://skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/fotogalerie/fotogalerie.html
Hawkwind thank you so much for sharing that with us!!!! :D :cool: :D
I spent maybe an hour or more looking all around the website. The gatherings look like they are soooo Much Fun!!!! We did this once long ago at an ndn wedding and it has been much too long!!!!
 
Yvsa, you're the best! Thanks for kicking me over the edge.

I TOLD everybody the Year of the Rooster was gonna be a good one!

I even have a new HI product on its way- chandan kerambit from last Friday. Things to be happy about....


"Generalissmo" Ad Astra
 
Jebadiah_Smith said:
Yvsa, did i ever tell you that its just 1 more point until I get my very own spectacular aura?
No you didn't, and no you don't.:rolleyes: :p :D ;)

I need 10 more to get cacti number five, I think.:confused: :D ;)

So, Semp beat me did he? Good on you both!:D :cool:
 
Jebadiah_Smith said:
They're supposed to be used edge up I tell you! Cutting edge up!

I'm going to be the bad guy here and disagree - partially. Allow me to explain.

From what I've read on the seax thus far, I have the impression that it wasn't a weapon first and foremost - it was something like the "combat" knives issued to soldiers today. Sure, it would make a serviceable weapon, but most of the time it was used as a general purpose tool and the soldier in question had something better for actual combat if I'm understanding the literature correctly. I'm guessing that the construction of the broken back seax had more to do with ease of manufacture than efficiency in combat: no curves to grind, no complex shapes, just three straight lines and some distal taper. Perhaps some of our resident knifemakers could shed some light on this.

I agree that the folks on the Sword Forum would have a bit to say about this. (They seem to have a bit to say about pretty much everything.) It would be interesting to hear their ideas.

Your theory on using it edge up to force the edge toward the vitals does make sense to me and I'll have to test that out more fully in the future. (I'll need a volunteer from the audience...any takers? No? Oh, well.) The problem in my eyes is the bottom of the ribcage, which could function as a "stop" for that upwards cutting action. Also, while the thrust may arguably be improved with this technique, slashing is difficult if not impossible without changing grip - basically, we've turned a cut-and-thrust weapon into a thrusting-only weapon. This doesn't make sense to me.

Not saying it was never done and not saying it wouldn't work - I'm just saying that I don't think it was done all the time, nor was it the preferred method of employment.

On a related note, that tip geometry reminds me a lot of the "armor-piercer" long swords of later centuries. I'd think that that tip would do a wonderful job of spreading maille links. This is another theory that I'm planning on testing as soon as I can motivate myself to fabricate a bit.

Disclaimer: I'm neither a knifemaker nor a historian nor a swordsman (as should be evident by now) nor a surgeon. Take my thoughts on the topic with a grain of salt.
 
Jebadiah_Smith said:
Im not sure about past lifes, but I have a developing theory about how the seax was used. I've posted it at least twice before, but hey, what the hell. Here I go again.

The seax was used cutting edge up, at least in a thrust.

The broken-back style tang of some seax is similar to that found on old bowie knives. According to Mike Stewart, those bowies were used cutting edge up, which makes sense if you think about it, the energy of most thrusts travels in an upward motion. Cutting edge up allows the knife to cut as well as poke when it is used to thrust. The broken back seax, when used with the edge up, aligns the point better on a stab, just try it and you will see. If the seax was used edge down on a stab, the wedge-like tip, I guess you would call it a clip?, drives the cutting edge down, away from vitals. Flip the blade over though, and the clip forces the cutting edge upward. This turns the dramatic ramping effect of the clip into a benefit, rather than the drawback it creates when used edge down. The ramping effect could then be used to force the blade into the heart without having to go through the sternum. I remember reading somewhere that seax were used to kill bears, I think that would most easily be done using the edge-up thrust into the heart of a bear reared up on its hind legs. Another thing that leads me to believe they were used edge-up is the fact that their sheaths hold them in an edge up position. People say this is to protect the stitching, which it does, but I also believe it was to allow the seax to be in the correct position when drawn.

Gee, I hope that jumble of words makes sense. Its late. I do not hold myself responsible for spelling errors or stupidity in the above. I just hope I dont become the crazy seax guy.

I need to share my opinions with some scholarly Brits who could articulate my points better.

Goodnight.


While I know next to nothing about blade combat, I've come across a blade-up style before (kind of). When I took aikido, we practiced defensive moves against a knife-wielding opponent. The blade was always held edge up. The idea was (as you've noted) that a stab into the abdomen could be followed by forcing the blade up into the chest cavity, slicing up vital organs and possibly pivoting into the heart. Of course, we didn't practice ANY actual knife fighting; we were merely told that this was the most effective way to hold a knife, ergo, someone attacking with a knife would be holding it in such a fashion and so we learned to counter against an edge-up attack. Possibly there is some precedent for an edge-up style in Japanese hand-to-hand combat.

Jeremy
 
I like mine just fine...

39389428.jpg
 
ArchAngel: yes , as I was making up my first email, all the nicks were used by somebody and this old englihsh band have been just playing, so I used it. :)

COMBAT USEFULNES OF SAEX -

as you might see we do also a battle once a year its called "Age of wolves".
To me saex is by means backup weapon of last resort. A wealthy man would have a sword as primary weapon. Poor one will have axe on about 1 meter long shaft, which is very cheap.
Everybody will use SPEAR untill mellee is too thick and then use the other weapon.

Seax comes from the idea that if you cannot afford the sword, youll have to get the biggest knife, local blacksmith is able to make.
Whatever it was used edge up or down remanis unknown, but when two rowes of wariors press on each other too hard, then you just dont have too much place for slashig with sword, nor knife, spears being broken and thrown away at the time.
I believe it was used just like Roman gladius means piercing in extremly thick shield formation, under shield or into throat.

Keep also in mind that mailie was rather costly piece of equipment and even if a viking could get it by pillage, it was definitelly armour of wealthy men. Others would have padded jack, piece of hardened leather, or just tunic, for majority of these men was quite poor.
 
SWEET : thats fantastic. Now you have to inlay it in silver and gold with fish bone design.
 
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