so how do y'all like your seax?

Someone stole my seax from my office this past Saturday :mad: The worst part of it all is that i think it was a cop:( Maybe i'll have to keep my eyes peeled for an UBDOTD. i really miss mine. The HI seax is in my top five favs of my collection. i USED to live here in my office as a toy/SD item. I hope it turns up, but it sure looks like a thief:(
Great info, hawkwind:) How come Sweet has all the good stuff?;)

Jake
 
Sweet...*sweet*!

Isn't the grip a little bit small though? You should send it to Bruise...


;)
 
Jake, that BITES if someone ripped off your seax. Remember a couple of things: it's a blessed blade, you were meant to have it, if a thief took it he may as well use it internally at once it for the bad karma his acts have brought on himself.

Tried to consolation prize-rep you, but I'm rep-bankrupt for 24 hrs.

I wonder what happens to these lost knives... like when somebody ripped off Dave up north... or when mail is genuinely lost... they have no idea what they are in possession of.


Ad Astra
 
You're right, AA. This seax had a mean streak in it. it would bite more often than any of my other blades. I can't imagine what kind of blood letting this blade is going to do to whomever stole it. I say that in all seriousness. I hope it doesn't bite him too bad. It was only a 75$ knife...not worth his finger;) I appreciate the thought with the rep points. Very kind of you, indeed. I'll get a new one next chance i get:)

Jake
 
I would like to see some HI saexes more traditionally mounted. Means with grip without rivets. And without front brass mounting.
 
Satori said:
I'm going to be the bad guy here and disagree - partially. Allow me to explain.

From what I've read on the seax thus far, I have the impression that it wasn't a weapon first and foremost - it was something like the "combat" knives issued to soldiers today. Sure, it would make a serviceable weapon, but most of the time it was used as a general purpose tool and the soldier in question had something better for actual combat if I'm understanding the literature correctly. I'm guessing that the construction of the broken back seax had more to do with ease of manufacture than efficiency in combat: no curves to grind, no complex shapes, just three straight lines and some distal taper. Perhaps some of our resident knifemakers could shed some light on this.

I agree that the folks on the Sword Forum would have a bit to say about this. (They seem to have a bit to say about pretty much everything.) It would be interesting to hear their ideas.

Your theory on using it edge up to force the edge toward the vitals does make sense to me and I'll have to test that out more fully in the future. (I'll need a volunteer from the audience...any takers? No? Oh, well.) The problem in my eyes is the bottom of the ribcage, which could function as a "stop" for that upwards cutting action. Also, while the thrust may arguably be improved with this technique, slashing is difficult if not impossible without changing grip - basically, we've turned a cut-and-thrust weapon into a thrusting-only weapon. This doesn't make sense to me.

Not saying it was never done and not saying it wouldn't work - I'm just saying that I don't think it was done all the time, nor was it the preferred method of employment.

On a related note, that tip geometry reminds me a lot of the "armor-piercer" long swords of later centuries. I'd think that that tip would do a wonderful job of spreading maille links. This is another theory that I'm planning on testing as soon as I can motivate myself to fabricate a bit.

Disclaimer: I'm neither a knifemaker nor a historian nor a swordsman (as should be evident by now) nor a surgeon. Take my thoughts on the topic with a grain of salt.

The broken-back has nothing to do with the blade shape. It just means that the tang points up towards the spine.

Back then, blades werent ground, they were forged. Its easier to forge curve than it is to forge perfectly straight lines and angles.

You're right about the tip, it would seem to penetrate mail better. Thats one more reason that I think it was used edge up, in a thrust. KM has some chain mail he made, I wonder if I could have just one poke...

The upward ramping action is what would make a knife avoid the bottom of the ribcage. A thrust could go through the diapragm(?), liver, through the lungs, and into the heart. Thats alot of vitals for one thrust.

As for the seax being a cut-and-thrust weapon turned into a thrusting weapon, why would you want to cut? You brought up the point of mail being worn. Chain mail, or any type of armor for that matter would be a whole lot easier to thrust through than it would be to chop through. Arrows dont cut, spears dont cut, and they were all very common weapons, probably because they penetrated armor better. Not to mention that people had shields and weapons to parry slashes with. Im not saying that a thrust is unstoppable, just that is harder to stop than a swing. Its also the most efficient attack in armored combat.

Imagine that you are being punched by someone, they can go for any open area that you arent protecting with a shield. Now imagine that you are being attacked by someone with an overhead or side-to-side swinging motion. Which one would be easier to block?
 
Well apart of swords of the time, which were intended for cutting mainly and their point is unusable for thrusting and axes which were probably dominant on the battlefield, which you cannot use for thrusting either.

The reason of the shape of seax is not the functionality, but the production.
STraight edge is easier to sharpen and easier to weld on and the point is indeed for thrusting, BUT......

In combat situation first spears were used, then either swords or axes and when the situation was too thick to use either one, the knifes were produced.

Saex was comonly worn horizontaly to waist in front or on the back edge down! - we know this, because some scabbards were riveted with copper sheets.
If you try this and just pull the knife out of the scabbard, then you are holding it as any other knife edge down.
You thrust then in second movement with your blade following circular movement of your hand from ellbow up probably through the belly to ribcage/lungs or anywhere.
No reason to change grip (it takes time also and that is crucial) since sharpnes of the edge has no influence in opening chainmail, because the point goes straight in angle about 45 degrees upwards.

Again rather low procento men had mailie at the time of using the weapon.

Other reason is that most efective technique against your opponent if you have more room to move would be forecut on his weapon arm, which is very fast and very easy to do with saex twice as light as sword or axe.

I did some fencing with saex, I will take some pictures tomorow and place them here, so you can see for yourself.
 
Ive read that axes werent very common on the battlefield because they are somewhat clumsy and easy to disarm with a spear. Why werent swords good for thrusting?

If the situation was too thick to even swing a sword, wouldnt a thrust be better?

Speaking of the seax as an everyday utility tool, is it true that they were sometimes used as drawknives by gripping it by the handle and the clip? That too might explain the straight edge.

But to me, just looking at it tells me that it was meant to be a thruster.
 
Ad Astra said:
...if a thief took it he may as well use it internally at once it for the bad karma his acts have brought on himself.

I'll be looking for Bill Marsh to be posting "Cursed seax still available on ebay."

:D
 
Jebadiah: the sword of the time isnt good for thrusting, because it has badly designed point, is that simple.
Saex is off course for thrusting, but the idea that it was used primarily edge up is nonsense.

Axe is effective and brutal and cheap - this is the weapon of choice of poor man.I havent heard or experienced about disarming with spear. This is the time in which disarming apart of cutting the hand off is unknown.If you are fighting somebody who wields spear, you want to have spear also, otherwise youre dead.
It is also good idea to have a buddy at your side and both with shields. The idea is to spear a opponent one man to right of you, since you are thrusting under his shield. The man just in front of you is the attacked by your companion at your left side and so on.

Stop thinking in terms of technique. The fight was very simple and good fighters were natural fighters and those with basic knowledge of principe. They knew their stuff well, but they didnt learned it as process. It evolved empirically with each warrior. The bad ones just died.

If you check our pictures (Skjaldborg and Wothanburg), youll see almost real thing, we are not lousy SCA.WE do check the safety, but that doesnt mean we will cripple our equipment because of to.
Weapons are steel, moderatelly blunted and the fight is rather raw and brutal.

E.G. If you want to cut with all the force you have, you can just leave your shield hanging and help your sword with the other hand.

http://foto.wothanburg.cz/cas_vlku2/dscn1680?full=1

Remember we are spaking about time from 800 A.D. to 1200 A.D. lets say that serious fencing manuals should have not to existed for another 550 years from beginn of this timespan.

(The first recorded is Manuscript 33.I sword and buckler (1340 or something)- which is very complex and very good manual for sword and buckler fighting fabulosly translated from old german and latin by one of my kinsmen and tought today in Prag)
 
dan·der1 (dăn'dər)
n. Informal.
Temper or anger: What got their dander up?

[Perhaps alteration of dunder, fermented cane juice used in rum-making, fermentation, possibly alteration of Spanish redundar, to overflow, from Latin redundāre. See redundant.]


dan·der2 (dăn'dər)
n.
Scurf from the coat or feathers of various animals, often of an allergenic nature.

[Alteration of DANDRUFF.]



Be well and safe.
 
Ill take Kismets hint.

Hawkwind,

Im sorry about my last post. There was just something about your last post when I first read it that pissed me off. Now looking back, I can see that I was the one being an *******. You bring alot to the forums, and I look forward to your future posts. Im taking my last one down right now. Its just my pet theory, so I got overly defensive. Sorry.

Brian
 
When you found it at the internet it must be right.....
The information about "upright edge" carrying the seax here is least say misinterpretation.

I would recomend you rather books like "Burials in Birka" where about 800 viking graves is described among them also (number) some with saex finds in picture. Its clear that about any variant of carrying is present and that longer examples just hang on one strap by the right leg as the sword does at left side.

My example fits just fine to some other examples found here in Czech and even in Gotland. (If you want you can take a look at the gotland examples I have posted, its the same thing) They are aparenly described "seax" .

Whatever it is seax or not - seax is described as big (utility) and in case of necesity fighting knife (taking in account some fighting only examples) and it is found from about 3. till 12. century. The migration period variants are different and the broken back variant is only one of many and one taken to extreme considering the shape.

As you stated "you dont care what happened there and there at the time" - that makes you hardly any fit to make a judgements about historic evidence.
I also do some seax /sword/shield fighting (and some serious later brodswoard fencing), what I think gives some credibility about use of either one, whatever you like it or not.

I will take some pictures about how these things have been really used.


I will not try convice you further, I will prevent flamewar from my side for the future.
 
Its O.K. I just wrote quite a bitter answer.
I will try to get some serious pictures of burial sites from mentioned book, which is in possesion of our "chieftan". I ll try to scan them and post.

Lets settle this. I m sorry too.
 
1. Jeb is serious.

2. I ain't takin' sides.

3. I wish the HI seax was longer, or they made 2nd version- langerseax

4. Share ideas & discuss- no one alive really knows.

5. We're lucky to have an HI seax- a mystery no doubt to the first Nepalese kami to make one.

We could get a ouija board and put a seax on it... hear from the celts/vikings/saxons/etc.


Ad Astra
 
Ad Astra - no one alive really knows :) Thats the real word! :)

As I said it would be nice to see HI saex wit different handle.
 
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