So I thought I'd try a santoku...

mbkr

mbkr

Gold Member
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
8,227
Yup, its sharp thumb.gif

First time using it :rolleyes:

Santoku1.JPG

Other than a paring knife here and there, I don't believe I've ever bought a kitchen knife. Always made do with hand me downs and gifts. Bought these two a couple of weeks ago. Nothing fancy or too extravagant. Zwilling Pro 6" Chef and the 6.5" Yaxell Mon santoku, a.k.a. "thumb killer"

YaxellZwilling.JPG

So far, I like the Zwilling better, but that's mostly because it hasn't attacked me :D

Merry (and hopefully not too bloody) Christmas! 🎄🤶⛪
 
Congratulations on finding knives that you like.

Regarding the santoku, remember that she's a foreigner, and may not be accustomed to Western mores, such as "not cutting the thumb of the wielder". Now, the forefinger is something else again... I'd suggest using Google 'translate' to master a couple of soothing Japanese phrases that you murmur into her handle before use.
 
I've used one for a while. CheapO I came across. Sharpened to razor.

Between the Santoku and a Chef. Both in general size. 6-7" long.

The only profound difference in cutting is when you're dicing an onion. Using the knife tip to cut slits before cross slicing.

With rocking cuts feeling lower on the Santoku. I always got the impression it's more a vegetable knife. Not so much meat. I like the blade shape but I'm happy with my Chef

My western is showing through.
 
The Santoku is an all-purpose knife aimed at the housewife. It combined features from the Kamigata(Osaka) styled Nakiri and the Gyuto. It is probably the youngest "Japanese Knives" out there as they did not seem to exist prior to the early 1980s.
By design they work best with vegetables, and they tend to be slightly less ideal for meat than a Gyuto. One reason for that is that in Japan, 90% of meats both Beef and Pork are sold already thinly sliced, as that suits the cuisine and recipes in Japan.
In theory the Santoku (three virtues) also known as Bannou Boucho (all purpose knife) deviates from the traditional Japanese approach of having a specific knife design for each purpose. In some cases even specific fish/seafoods.
 
KenHash said:
The Santoku is an all-purpose knife aimed at the housewife. It combined features from the Kamigata(Osaka) styled Nakiri and the Gyuto. It is probably the youngest "Japanese Knives" out there as they did not seem to exist prior to the early 1980s.
By design they work best with vegetables, and they tend to be slightly less ideal for meat than a Gyuto. One reason for that is that in Japan, 90% of meats both Beef and Pork are sold already thinly sliced, as that suits the cuisine and recipes in Japan.
In theory the Santoku (three virtues) also known as Bannou Boucho (all purpose knife) deviates from the traditional Japanese approach of having a specific knife design for each purpose. In some cases even specific fish/seafoods.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info. Both of these are primarily going to be used on vegetables. I was looking for a 6" chef knife, then got curious about the santoku.
 
I like the Santoku as an all around blade. My wife an I still reach for the Nakiri for vegetables and the Gyuto for meat when we cut in volume.
 
mbkr said:
Thanks for the info. Both of these are primarily going to be used on vegetables. I was looking for a 6" chef knife, then got curious about the santoku.
Click to expand...
I use a 180mm (6 in) Tojiro R2 gyuto for just about everything. My wife uses a Tojiro DP Nakiri and Hiromoto Blue Super Petty for vegetables and a Henckels 6 in carver for meats. As mentioned in other posts, the best knife is what the individual is used to, has learned on, is most comfortable with. I don't rock cut, bt if I did, I would propbably appreciate the belly on German knives, Shuns, Kramer styles.
 
jc57 said:
So is the German-made Zwilling. :)

Type of knife really depends on your personal preferred cutting style and what you'll be processing with it. I have a decent santoku but, like toker toker , I generally use a gyuto or nakiri depending on the thing being cut.
Click to expand...
A very valid point, which I completely blew past. Of course, I'm German, and don't feel like a foreigner (I'm in California)...
 
My foundational kitchen knives--well before I began regarding cooking as a serious hobby--were a Kai Seki Magoroku Nakiri I was given in Japan, and a very American Sir Lawrence carbon butcher knife. The butcher knife was upgraded to a Wusthof Classic Ikon 8" Chef Knife almost immediately. A few years later, my Nakiri was upgraded to a Kai Shun Kaji hollow ground santoku. They became foundational to my current batterie of home kitchen knives that I use every day. I became a real fan of Kai's efforts at cultural fusion between Japanese and American, and I now have several knives that can be substituted in for both home use and comparison testing: a Kai Shun Fuji 8.5" Chef Knife, a Miyabi birchwood 8" Chef knife, a Shun dual core santoku, and a Shun Nagara dual core santoku I just got for Christmas.

I've gone from a simple home cook to a home cooking enthusiast.
 
mbkr said:
Yup, its sharp View attachment 2433789

First time using it :rolleyes:

View attachment 2433787

Other than a paring knife here and there, I don't believe I've ever bought a kitchen knife. Always made do with hand me downs and gifts. Bought these two a couple of weeks ago. Nothing fancy or too extravagant. Zwilling Pro 6" Chef and the 6.5" Yaxell Mon santoku, a.k.a. "thumb killer"

View attachment 2433794

So far, I like the Zwilling better, but that's mostly because it hasn't attacked me :D

Merry (and hopefully not too bloody) Christmas! 🎄🤶⛪
Click to expand...
These knives come from completely different heritages, but, at this point, they have become home cooking eye candy in American homes: knives that we find practical and fun to use. Both of them are full tang with half bolsters--and handles that are solidly attached. The Mon is a laminated knife--with softer steel surrounding a hard, brittle, inner core. The laminate gives the user a little extra sharpness for a longer time compared to monosteel knives, but will need special attention to maintain that advantage. The Zwilling is a monosteel knife that offers durability and easy maintenance to ensure adequate home cooking sharpness for a lifetime.

Their heritage is betrayed by their profiles--which are suited to different strokes in preparing different home meals. That's something each user must work out for himself/herself.

In a month or two, you'll have it figured out.
 
My kitchen stable comprises an 8 inch chef's knife, a paring knife, and a santoku. The santoku is my primary knife for vegetables. It is awesome for push cuts on tomatoes, onions, bell peppers, etc. Love the blade style and geometry.
 
Dr. Rayeye said:
I became a real fan of Kai's efforts at cultural fusion between Japanese and American, and I now have several knives that can be substituted in for both home use and comparison testing: a Kai Shun Fuji 8.5" Chef Knife, a Miyabi birchwood 8" Chef knife, a Shun dual core santoku, and a Shun Nagara dual core santoku I just got for Christmas.
Click to expand...
I think it would be more accurate to say a cultural fusion between Japanese and German knives. Mr. Endo of Kai spun off the Shun series from the Seki Magoroku line in 2002 specifically to enter and compete with Henckels and Wustoff in the US market. That meant breaking their near monopoly in the William Sonoma retail stores. Conceptually it was so succesful that Zwilling opened a factory in Seki Japan in 2004.

While there are certainly American makers, like Dexter-Russel or Cutco, and they have a following, they do not have much market share,
 
The mutual influence sharing between Kai and American knife makers goes back to the 70's, when Kai purchased the Kershaw knife company, but continued working with Kershaw himself developing considerable intellectual rights together--which continues to this day with Kershaw's present American management.
 
Dr. Rayeye said:
The mutual influence sharing between Kai and American knife makers goes back to the 70's, when Kai purchased the Kershaw knife company, but continued working with Kershaw himself developing considerable intellectual rights together--which continues to this day with Kershaw's present American management.
Click to expand...
I am more than aware of KAI's relationship with Kershaw. When Pete Kershaw left Gerber it was Kai who arranged for Ichiro Hattori to majke the first Kershaw knives
in 1974. Kai also had some Kershaw mofdels made by Ono Cutlery in Seki. Kai eventually bought out Kershaw with Pete remaining onboard.
See my website:
However Kershaw was not a big Kitchen knife brand, and those that were sold under the Kershaw brand were Kai's Japanese products.

The "fusion" we see in Kai's Shun series started in 2002 onwards, and is as stated, a mixture of Japanese and German profiles. Mr Edo ha said so himself.
Interestingly the cross cultural influence went both ways as German makers started making some models without their traditional full bolsters.
 
Great stuff! The Americanization of Kai kitchen knives into Shun was partly process and partly design, and was much more gradual and complex than I thought or realized when I first got interested seven years ago. The first Shun that got attention, and is still around, is the Shun Classic Chinese Cleaver. The two who really Americanized Kai products, as Shun evolved, were Bob Kramer, who came aboard with an already established collection, and Ken Onion, who had primarily worked with folding knives.

The signature high end Chef knife, first explicitly marketed as a fusion knife was the award winning Shun Fuji Chef knife--which I finally found a non nosebleed way to purchase several years ago. It's everything that I hoped for in a cultural fusion knife--and is the Chef knife in my home batterie. The most Americanized early Shun series was the Kaji--designed by Ken Onion, and fetching high prices as collector's knives these days. My Shun Kaji santoku hollow ground is a toned down Kaji currently still being marketed. These two knives in my batterie, the Fuji and Kaji, represent the American-Japanese cultural fusion I identify with.
 
Dr. Rayeye said:
These knives come from completely different heritages, but, at this point, they have become home cooking eye candy in American homes: knives that we find practical and fun to use. Both of them are full tang with half bolsters--and handles that are solidly attached. The Mon is a laminated knife--with softer steel surrounding a hard, brittle, inner core. The laminate gives the user a little extra sharpness for a longer time compared to monosteel knives, but will need special attention to maintain that advantage. The Zwilling is a monosteel knife that offers durability and easy maintenance to ensure adequate home cooking sharpness for a lifetime.

Their heritage is betrayed by their profiles--which are suited to different strokes in preparing different home meals. That's something each user must work out for himself/herself.

In a month or two, you'll have it figured out.
Click to expand...
You are probably comparing those two specific knives but just to be clear, there is nothing about a clad/laminate knife that gives it any advantage in edge retention over a monosteel construction. The way it was worded seemed to suggest that.

I think the whole "extra sharpness" of carbon steels is one of the biggest myths in kitchen knives as well, but that's just my opinion.
 
chalby said:
You are probably comparing those two specific knives but just to be clear, there is nothing about a clad/laminate knife that gives it any advantage in edge retention over a monosteel construction. The way it was worded seemed to suggest that.

I think the whole "extra sharpness" of carbon steels is one of the biggest myths in kitchen knives as well, but that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...
I don't think the Japanese claim an advantage in edge retention for laminates--just reduced risks of chipping--but the harder steel allows a thinner edge to be retained.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top