Soft Arkansas: too fine? (density)

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Papilio

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Sep 6, 2019
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As I posted a couple of months ago I have (and use) a set of Arkansas stones.
Putting them on a scale is not the proper way to identify the gravity of each stone. But maybe it is a clue, to compare the stones as it is done here (Dan's Whetstone Company): https://www.danswhetstone.com/information/stone-grades-101/
To be more precise: My Hard stone seems to be quite dense and feels closer to 1.000 grit than to 800. Works good. My Hard Black works great and makes very sharp edges. Putting it on the scale gives 2.50+. The edge is much better than finishing on my Surgical Black.

I don't now if I should be happy with my Soft Arkansas. Putting it on the scale shows it is quite heavy. And that's how the stone feels: Fine and smooth. Very likely not 400 grit. It works slowly, but leaves a sharp edge, if you are patient enough. And you need to be very patient. Already a good working edge.

What do you think?
Great, a fine stone leaving a good edge?
Bad, it should be coarser as it is the stone to start with. I would want to have a faster cutting (coarser) Soft Arkansas?

Should I keep it or try another one hoping it is a coarser (softer) stone?
 
I've been using Arkansas stones for a looooong time and love them but I would not consider a Soft Ark the "stone to start with" or fast cutting.

Yes, if I'm just bringing back a mildly dull but already apexed edge, then I generally start on a Soft. But I don't look to a soft to grind in the edge. You need something more aggressive for that. Steel dependent, a course silicon carbide or diamond. My Arkansas stones, while they do sharpen, or more about refreshing and refining.

I hope that makes sense.
 
Agreed. I don't use a Soft Arkansas for reprofiling an edge or sharpen a dull knife.
Natural stone vary. Dan's rates a Soft Arkansas with a gravity (specific densitiy) between 2.20 and 2.30. That means there are finer and "coarser" stones. My Soft Arkansas seems to be on the finer end.
Ideally you want a 400 grit Soft and a 1.000 grit Hard stone and not both close together.
Some time ago I had a pocket stone (Soft). The surface felt coarser and the stone worked faster.
That's what makes me think about trying another one.
Apart that: Love my stones, too. I like it, that they are not that aggressive and leave a fine edge without wearing a knife so quickly like manmade stones do.
 
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Arkansas stones are great for high carbon steels and low carbide stainless steels like Sandvik grades, but don't work very well on high carbide volume powder steels. I reserve my ancient Black Arkansas bench stone, inherited from a great uncle who was a carpenter, for finishing my high carbon blades. It creates a microscopic toothy edge that is hard to duplicate on an ultra fine diamond DMT.
 
Papilio, bien venido. You can make the current soft Arkansas cut in the same manner as your old one by finishing the surface different. Try rubbing it with a coarse crystolon stone con auga. Por no mass dose minutos. Then try it. DM
 
I've always considered all my Arkansas stones to be polishers after an India stone.
But as David Martin is saying, you can change the character of an Arkansas stone pretty easily. They get finer with use, which is great if you have an old black or translucent piece of novaculite.
Some SiC powder, wet/dry sandpaper, or coarser whetstone will do it.

Incidentally why I've never upgraded to a larger black Arkansas stone - I'd be giving up the wear on my current one.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Arkansas stones are great for high carbon steels and low carbide stainless steels like Sandvik grades, but don't work very well on high carbide volume powder steels. I reserve my ancient Black Arkansas bench stone, inherited from a great uncle who was a carpenter, for finishing my high carbon blades. It creates a microscopic toothy edge that is hard to duplicate on an ultra fine diamond DMT.
Click to expand...

Mostly I sharpen stainless steel kitchen knives. Softer steel up to 59 HRC. I have one knife that does not seem to take an edge. The rest gets decent to scary sharp.

David Martin said:
Papilio, bien venido. You can make the current soft Arkansas cut in the same manner as your old one by finishing the surface different. Try rubbing it with a coarse crystolon stone con auga. Por no mass dose minutos. Then try it. DM
Click to expand...

¡Gracias! Will try that. Crystolon is silicium carbide, India aluminum oxide...right? I always confuse that.

Ourorboros said:
I've always considered all my Arkansas stones to be polishers after an India stone.
Click to expand...
I have a man-made stone, I think it is an India. Grit is 240 and 600 JIS. What means that the finer (600) side of the India and the Soft Arkansas should be - more or less - on the same level. But the India seems to work faster, the Soft Arkansas produces a better sharpness.

Ourorboros said:
But as David Martin is saying, you can change the character of an Arkansas stone pretty easily. They get finer with use, which is great if you have an old black or translucent piece of novaculite.
Some SiC powder, wet/dry sandpaper, or coarser whetstone will do it.
Incidentally why I've never upgraded to a larger black Arkansas stone - I'd be giving up the wear on my current one.
Click to expand...

Good to know. So the stones get finer with use...until they are too fine? Is there a need for a roughening, from time to time? Like fine ceramic stones?
My Surgical Black is already very fine. Works with one knife but seems to dull all others.
 
Agree. Re-profile with a 400g diamond plate, sharpen with soft Arkansas, proceed to hard or even black/translucent if you want a "polished" edge. For pocket knives I've come to appreciate (and now prefer) a soft Arkansas "toothy" edge. Haven't touched the hard, black or translucent in months. Periodically, I lap (sand) the soft Arkansas with the 400 diamond plate (dry, no oil) just until the surface releases a soft white powder from the sanding. I also use the plate to soften all of the stone's edges. That puts the soft right where I like it for a final (pocket knife edge. With kitchen knives, especially Japanese, I further use the hard and translucent to approach a mirror edge for push cutting (hard to get a really mirror finish with Arkansas, it seems).
 
Papilio said:
As I posted a couple of months ago I have (and use) a set of Arkansas stones.
Putting them on a scale is not the proper way to identify the gravity of each stone. But maybe it is a clue, to compare the stones as it is done here (Dan's Whetstone Company): https://www.danswhetstone.com/information/stone-grades-101/
To be more precise: My Hard stone seems to be quite dense and feels closer to 1.000 grit than to 800. Works good. My Hard Black works great and makes very sharp edges. Putting it on the scale gives 2.50+. The edge is much better than finishing on my Surgical Black.

I don't now if I should be happy with my Soft Arkansas. Putting it on the scale shows it is quite heavy. And that's how the stone feels: Fine and smooth. Very likely not 400 grit. It works slowly, but leaves a sharp edge, if you are patient enough. And you need to be very patient. Already a good working edge.

What do you think?
Great, a fine stone leaving a good edge?
Bad, it should be coarser as it is the stone to start with. I would want to have a faster cutting (coarser) Soft Arkansas?

Should I keep it or try another one hoping it is a coarser (softer) stone?
Click to expand...
It sounds to me like you need to try a washita. The auction site always has some and the more modern ones with some color to them and many with a Smith's label are half inch stones that can be had fairly inexpensively. They are not the quality of the older ones but they are soft and fast.....for an ark. Nice toothy knife edges.
 
Papilio said:
Good to know. So the stones get finer with use...until they are too fine? Is there a need for a roughening, from time to time? Like fine ceramic stones?
My Surgical Black is already very fine. Works with one knife but seems to dull all others.
Click to expand...
For the soft and hard the stones will lose too much bite with use.
For polishing, I've never found a stone to be too fine, but those are my tastes. But I've concentrated my use on one face of one of my stones. The other faces are used when I don't want quite as polished an edge but want to remove material relatively fast for a fine stone.
The straight edge guys who use novaculite love a worn in stone.
 
I should add that how a stone is finished determines it's initial character as well.
Of the modern companies, Dan's Whetstone cuts their stones with the finest saw (as well as being the most consistently flat). This is great for their translucent and black stones, because polish is what is desired.
On the other hand it's not a great finish for their soft and hard stones - it's the opposite of what I want.

A stone can be made finer too, with the right SiC powder. So instead of wearing my polishing Arkansas stones finer, I could get some float glass, SiC powder, and grind it down.
 
Thanks for all replies.
Well, I don't know if to go with a Washita. I think for reprofiling, sharpen a damaged edge etc. I would rather want a Crystolon, India or maybe diamond. Although my experience with diamonds was not that good. I did not get a good feedback from that stone (diamond side, DC4; extra-fine feels better).
Wet-and dry-sandpaper is available form extra coarse to ultra fine. And SiC powder comes in different grits, too. What would you suggest to roughen up the stones?
Which one to choose to make the finer stones finer? 600 is probably not fine enough?

I tried a small stone (~ 150 grit maybe) and some water with the Soft. Feels better now.
 
For the low alloy stuff I think a great combination is a Baryonyx Manticore, India Fine, Arkansas Soft, and then whatever final homing, if any, you prefer. That will cover just about all of what you have to do. You can sub in a course Crystolon for the Manticore if you have to.
 
A coarse, fast cutting stone like the Manticore would be a completion. Not easy to get, I do not live in the USA.
Norton has some coarse stones, but they are soaked with oil, I think. I prefer water.
I will have to take a closer look at those low grit stones.
 
Papilio said:
A coarse, fast cutting stone like the Manticore would be a completion. Not easy to get, I do not live in the USA.
Norton has some coarse stones, but they are soaked with oil, I think. I prefer water.
I will have to take a closer look at those low grit stones.
Click to expand...

I much prefer oil over water, especially for Crystolon and India stones. That said, I have never bought a Norton that was pre-soaked in oil.
 
From Norton....

"Most Norton India and Crystolon stones are pre-filled with lubricating oil at the factory-a unique Norton quality feature that lets you put the stone to work right away without pre-soaking. Even with oil pre-filling, be sure to apply lubricant every time the stone is used- it's vital to continued good stone performance."
 
garry3 said:
From Norton....

"Most Norton India and Crystolon stones are pre-filled with lubricating oil at the factory-a unique Norton quality feature that lets you put the stone to work right away without pre-soaking. Even with oil pre-filling, be sure to apply lubricant every time the stone is used- it's vital to continued good stone performance."
Click to expand...

Thanks Garry. Where I buy them it doesn't say anything about that and I've never seen it on the Norton site. They seem dry when you get them so I've never considered it.
 
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