Something that's been annoying me for a while ...

[Hrimnir]

So in the knife community you get a lot of people who say the words "high carbon" or "carbon" steel with this sort of reverence. Then if you mention stainless, some will curl their noses up as if you suggested the knife was made out of talcum powder or something.

There is this base underlying assumption that carbon steel is just "better" and you would only ever use stainless because you couldn't get carbon or it was an application that just had to have rust resistance.

Now of course the metallurgy enthusiasts among us (which is most of us) know that the only differentiating factor of stainless is the addition of around 10% chromium (give or take of course).

So getting to the part that annoys me, is so many stainless steel have way, way higher carbon contents than revered steels like 1095 or O2, W2, 5160, etc. S30v for example is 1.45% carbon, Elmax is 1.7, both of which are significantly higher than something like 1095.

So why is the emphasis put on the carbon, rather than say, saying high Iron content steel. Since as far as I can tell it's the fact that there is more iron in the steel mix that gives it the additional toughness we associate with what are also commonly called tool steels.

Now I'm certainly no expert on this topic, but as a layman that moniker of "high carbon steel" always rubbed me the wrong way.

Edit: Also. I don't want to respond to each and everyone directly, but I think people may have over assumed my level of anger or dismay. I chose the word annoyed for that reason. Not trying to say it's this widespread rampant problem or anything. It's just common enough (especially outside of forums like this) and in the common parlance that it gets frustrating.

 

[gadgetgeek]

As with every community there are topics that most people have little knowledge of and little desire to know more. Then as you get deeper and deeper each person has their own priorities of how they view the hobby. This is just one of those things. To someone who greatly values design, fit, or ergonomics, metallurgy may mean little. Some value heat treatment more than the actual steel, because they see the value there. Some its final finish or thickness behind the edge.

Point is if you decide that someone else is liking a thing the wrong way, you will quickly be soured to the community and to the hobby as a whole. Its one of the first stages of what many might call "hipsterism, snobbishness" or similar. Now that might not be what it is, but it is what it becomes. Like what you like, enjoy what you enjoy. Feel free to correct factual errors, but understand that your knowledge base might be not as deep as you think, the old Dunning Kruger problem.

Also your perception might have been more accurate a decade ago, but anyone current to the state of the art is operating on a different playing field now. There is room for both, but beware of broad brushes.

 

[Legendary_Jarl]

I recommend you read this knifesteelnerds article about the topic of stainless vs carbon. It explain why many people have that somewhat irrational prejudice against stainless:

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/10/carbon-vs-stainless-steel-in-knives/

 

[BitingSarcasm]

It's difficult to use logic to resolve a subjective issue, especially when people don't agree on common definitions and frameworks. Look at it this way, if we were still knapping our knives from obsidian we would be arguing about what kind of obsidian led to the best edge.

 

[19-3ben]

I think your issue is a bit dated. If you came here 15 years ago griping about this you might be right. But in the last few decades steel has come a long way and I really don’t hear anyone poo-pooing all stainless steel just because it’s stainless.


I think at this point your imagining a non-existent problem.

 

[sliceofaloha]

It's difficult to use logic to resolve a subjective issue, especially when people don't agree on common definitions and frameworks. Look at it this way, if we were still knapping our knives from obsidian we would be arguing about what kind of obsidian led to the best edge.

powdered obsidian, spray dried and then formed

 

[TRfromMT]

Carbon steel is a reference to the relatively high amount of carbon compared to structural steel. The comparison comes from the machining/metalworking industry. Think of it as "tool steel" versus "mild steel" and maybe you won't be so annoyed.

 

[Hrimnir]

Carbon steel is a reference to the relatively high amount of carbon compared to structural steel. The comparison comes from the machining/metalworking industry. Think of it as "tool steel" versus "mild steel" and maybe you won't be so annoyed.

See this explains a lot, and it makes sense why that industry and people in that industry would use those references and how that might bleed over into the public discourse. Thank you for this.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

I think the carbon/stainless debate, as been mentioned, is indeed dated and over in the knife community short of a preference of one over the other in general. I don't anyone who truly lives in the hobby the way many of us do sees it so binary.

Where I see it still turn up is at the fringes of related hobbies like firearms. Gun guys maybe have a $2,000 pistol on their belt but not find any value in a knife costing more than $30. To them, the gun has more value as a perceived self defense item over a knife just used for cutting stuff. Likewise, some of us in the knife industry may put a lot more value on the knife in their pocket over the gun they carry. It is not uncommon at all for me to have $300 folder in my right pocket and a $200 pocket pistol in the other. Neither view is right or wrong. It's just preference.

I recently saw a poster on a gun related forum spout off that the reason we have stainless knives is because everyone is getting lazy and not wanting to take care of anything. That all real quality kitchen cutlery was carbon steel and that only the cheap stuff you throw in the dishwasher was stainless. Obviously, there are a lot of stainless steels out there that straight eat the lunch of carbon steels regarding edge holding and toughness. For me, carbon steel preference is usually due to the fact that I'm old school when it comes to sharpening. I like softer steel that I can touch up over harder steel that may last longer but require more work to sharpen. Carbon and stainless have their places for sure.

 

[Wowbagger]

What ?

Ok . . . seriously I think those who know will say :
Plain high carbon
or
Tool Steel
or
Stainless (when we say stainless here we mean stainless with enough alloys to allow it to be made into a usable knife blade)

"High Carbon" just means it is hardenable steel as opposed to iron with just enough carbon so it can be called structural steel . . . think : the stuff the swing set or riding lawn mower frame is made from.

 

[Getahl]

The reason I like stainless, as stupid as it sounds, is because carbon makes some food taste weird. And it's not even that I use my pocket knife to cut the occasional apple, because it's a rarity. It is because ,if I do cut my food with a pocket knife , I don't want to have to taste that weird chemical reaction carbon steel has on certain foods.

I like the way carbon blades develop patina - it's very pretty. And I consider myself more of a edge and blade geometry snob than a steel snob, so its really just preference.

 

[User27]

It's difficult to use logic to resolve a subjective issue, especially when people don't agree on common definitions and frameworks. Look at it this way, if we were still knapping our knives from obsidian we would be arguing about what kind of obsidian led to the best edge.

Used to be into flintknapping, I was today years old when
I found out that there's more types of obsidian than just the
black stuff, then again the hobby was preeety short-lived
for me.The more you know.

 

[Hrimnir]

I think the carbon/stainless debate, as been mentioned, is indeed dated and over in the knife community short of a preference of one over the other in general. I don't anyone who truly lives in the hobby the way many of us do sees it so binary.

Where I see it still turn up is at the fringes of related hobbies like firearms. Gun guys maybe have a $2,000 pistol on their belt but not find any value in a knife costing more than $30. To them, the gun has more value as a perceived self defense item over a knife just used for cutting stuff. Likewise, some of us in the knife industry may put a lot more value on the knife in their pocket over the gun they carry. It is not uncommon at all for me to have $300 folder in my right pocket and a $200 pocket pistol in the other. Neither view is right or wrong. It's just preference.

I recently saw a poster on a gun related forum spout off that the reason we have stainless knives is because everyone is getting lazy and not wanting to take care of anything. That all real quality kitchen cutlery was carbon steel and that only the cheap stuff you throw in the dishwasher was stainless. Obviously, there are a lot of stainless steels out there that straight eat the lunch of carbon steels regarding edge holding and toughness. For me, carbon steel preference is usually due to the fact that I'm old school when it comes to sharpening. I like softer steel that I can touch up over harder steel that may last longer but require more work to sharpen. Carbon and stainless have their places for sure.

Great comment. It is interesting because honestly I've always kind of lumped gun and knife people in the same sort of "weapon related hobbyist" group, but I should probably start considering it different communities. I also am a gun person and you're right, I do know a lot of guys who refuse to carry anything higher end than the knife they got at a gas station for $17 dollars. But they're perfectly willing to spend 1800 on a custom glock. As you said though, to each their own.

As for your last paragraph, that's to the T exactly the type of stuff I was referring to. I just encounter it enough that it's gotten to be tedious and annoying.

 

[Hrimnir]

As with every community there are topics that most people have little knowledge of and little desire to know more. Then as you get deeper and deeper each person has their own priorities of how they view the hobby. This is just one of those things. To someone who greatly values design, fit, or ergonomics, metallurgy may mean little. Some value heat treatment more than the actual steel, because they see the value there. Some its final finish or thickness behind the edge.

Point is if you decide that someone else is liking a thing the wrong way, you will quickly be soured to the community and to the hobby as a whole. Its one of the first stages of what many might call "hipsterism, snobbishness" or similar. Now that might not be what it is, but it is what it becomes. Like what you like, enjoy what you enjoy. Feel free to correct factual errors, but understand that your knowledge base might be not as deep as you think, the old Dunning Kruger problem.

Also your perception might have been more accurate a decade ago, but anyone current to the state of the art is operating on a different playing field now. There is room for both, but beware of broad brushes.

Just wanted to mention and say thanks for being rational and objective. I do think i was probably overstating how bad it was in hindsight. You know sometimes you get wrapped up and become more emotional than necessary.

I also really didn't mean to come across snobbish but when I went back and re-read my post I can definitely see how that impression was given.

I also wanted to clarify, mainly what was miffing me so much is why the term high carbon is so common, but one of the responses mentioned that came from the structural industry where they would differentiate steels based on carbon because they would (presumably) have no need to harden steels in those situations and using a high carbon steel could actually be detrimental to the intended purpose.

As you also mentioned it's easy to get into a hobby and bechome hippstery. I.e. I'll wrinkle my nose at a knife that uses 440c and my roommate who is the one that got me into knives when we were young will have to smack me down with logic and fact .

Never the less, thanks for the input

 

[dirc]

See this explains a lot, and it makes sense why that industry and people in that industry would use those references and how that might bleed over into the public discourse. Thank you for this.

You're half way there... read all of Larrin 's website posts about steel, and you'll start to get it. www.knifesteelnerds.com

I'll give you this summary: both stainless and non-stainless steels have carbon - 'mild steel' does not have very much, and is typically used in really cheap knives, and mostly in structural applications like cars and buildings. *Edited to add:* Elon Musk is using 301 stainless in his spaceship! ; )

'high carbon' - has enough carbon in general to harden up to knife standards (like near 60 hrc)...

Once you get past 0.8% carbon, you get 'harder' steel, but it also starts to get brittle the more carbon you add. This is why it's so easy chip out super high carbon steels...

This is a somewhat gross oversimplification - read more about it on Larrin's website, or really technical reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_system

 

[Larrin]

Carbon steel refers to steel that doesn’t have any major alloying elements added. It’s just iron and carbon (and a little manganese and silicon). Carbon steel is also used generically to refer to non-stainless steel, even though it’s not really a correct use of the term.

 

[gadgetgeek]

Just wanted to mention and say thanks for being rational and objective. I do think i was probably overstating how bad it was in hindsight. You know sometimes you get wrapped up and become more emotional than necessary.

I also really didn't mean to come across snobbish but when I went back and re-read my post I can definitely see how that impression was given.

I also wanted to clarify, mainly what was miffing me so much is why the term high carbon is so common, but one of the responses mentioned that came from the structural industry where they would differentiate steels based on carbon because they would (presumably) have no need to harden steels in those situations and using a high carbon steel could actually be detrimental to the intended purpose.

As you also mentioned it's easy to get into a hobby and bechome hippstery. I.e. I'll wrinkle my nose at a knife that uses 440c and my roommate who is the one that got me into knives when we were young will have to smack me down with logic and fact .

Never the less, thanks for the input

No probs. I actually read your post thinking "This guy sounds way more snobby than he probably is, I bet he doesn't see it yet but will"! And so I framed my response in a way that I hoped you would get, and you did. So a win all around. I would guess that a large part of the heat from discussions here comes from one party either intentionally or not, being very pedantic then using a "common" term, and someone with as much or more knowledge trying to add to the particulars. Then you have this weird mix of common and technical language getting mixed in from other places and thus confusion about what the other people are understanding. It can be tricky to deal with. As you learn the people, you learn who's unconsciously speaking engineer, and who's trying to act smart with three wiki tabs open.

 

[Hrimnir]

No probs. I actually read your post thinking "This guy sounds way more snobby than he probably is, I bet he doesn't see it yet but will"! And so I framed my response in a way that I hoped you would get, and you did. So a win all around. I would guess that a large part of the heat from discussions here comes from one party either intentionally or not, being very pedantic then using a "common" term, and someone with as much or more knowledge trying to add to the particulars. Then you have this weird mix of common and technical language getting mixed in from other places and thus confusion about what the other people are understanding. It can be tricky to deal with. As you learn the people, you learn who's unconsciously speaking engineer, and who's trying to act smart with three wiki tabs open.

Definitely. I really wasn't trying to shit on anyone or make myself out to be "better" than anyone, it was just one of those weird terms that I never understood how it became common parlance.

Basically "oh that's stainless not carbon steel!" And me as a nerd going "but this stainless has carbon in it?" I do have a serious issue with pedantry but it doesn't stem from elitism it honestly just stems from me being a very logic minded person so I tend to see the world in specifics rather than grey areas, which has its own host of problems (such as people getting very annoyed with me).

 

[Hrimnir]

You're half way there... read all of Larrin 's website posts about steel, and you'll start to get it. www.knifesteelnerds.com

I'll give you this summary: both stainless and non-stainless steels have carbon - 'mild steel' does not have very much, and is typically used in really cheap knives, and mostly in structural applications like cars and buildings. *Edited to add:* Elon Musk is using 301 stainless in his spaceship! ; )

'high carbon' - has enough carbon in general to harden up to knife standards (like near 60 hrc)...

Once you get past 0.8% carbon, you get 'harder' steel, but it also starts to get brittle the more carbon you add. This is why it's so easy chip out super high carbon steels...

This is a somewhat gross oversimplification - read more about it on Larrin's website, or really technical reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_system

Appreciate it. I will read through this soon as I'm off work.

 

[gadgetgeek]

Definitely. I really wasn't trying to shit on anyone or make myself out to be "better" than anyone, it was just one of those weird terms that I never understood how it became common parlance.

Basically "oh that's stainless not carbon steel!" And me as a nerd going "but this stainless has carbon in it?" I do have a serious issue with pedantry but it doesn't stem from elitism it honestly just stems from me being a very logic minded person so I tend to see the world in specifics rather than grey areas, which has its own host of problems (such as people getting very annoyed with me).

Also when you consider that now we have "mostly stainless" or "stain resistant", Semi-stainless, and "true stainless" (like H1) and as you say, actual carbon content might not be the best descriptor anymore. But 100 years ago, "carbon" and "silver" steel made sense to the cutlery buying public.