Sorry if this is a dumb question.. but can someone please help me out explaining the differences...

A

axlfoley

Joined
Jul 7, 2018
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i apologize if this is obvious to a lot of people, but i have searched the forum, other forums google, reddit, youtube.. and i can't get consistent accurate info... could someone lay it out for me and tell me the definitions/differences between these (for the purpose of lining the kaowool/ceramic blanket of the forge i'm making)

1. satanite
2. refractory cement
3. refractory mortar
4. castable refractory
5. high temp furnace cement (for temps up to 2,700 degrees F)
6. rigidizer
7. fire clay
8. ceramic coating (which i believe would be a product like ITC-100 i think)
9 (slightly OT) should sodium silicate and/or perlite and/or vermaculite and/or silica sand and/or portland cement and/or regular sand be mixed with any of the above ideally...(or def. not mixed?)

10. will a 4:1 ratio of high-temp furnace cement and perlite with a bit of water work as a liner to the forge? (about 1/4" - 1/2" thick, then coated with ITC-100).

question 10 is my plan...

have those things and very little money left to spend on this project...$0 for all intents and purposes haha (i have plenty of rutland high-temp furnace cement.... for temps of up to 2,700 degrees F.. and plenty of perlite)

----------------------

i've read both yes and no about that plan (i have read not to use perlite because it's melting point is lower than forging temps.. but i have also read mixing it with the high-temp furnace cement makes that not an issue)...about 50% of the people i've asked say yes to use the perlite mix.. 50% say no... 1/2 of those people say because of it's low melting point.. the other half never really specify why not)

I think (please correct me if im wrong).. but satanite is ideal (though not readily available except online)

satanite it is a type of refractory cement i think?

high-temp furnace cement + perlite (4:1 ratio) is a recipe for refractory cement (i think)

i plan on using that mix (unless someone tells me not to?)



also was going to tack weld some finishing nails to the door and use the sodium silicate (water glass, which i have) to stick the ceramic blanket to the door before i coat it with the furnace cement+perlite mix, and itc-100.


(i am using a piece of kiln shelf for the "floor" fyi)

i think/hope i have everything i need ?


if someone could lay out these definitions plain and simple and clarify everything straight forward ...i'd really really appreciate it!


sorry for the long post.. i just didn't want to forget anything... but if someone could answer those 9 questions for me and clear up all the confusion/vague/incomplete/different/contradicting info i have... that would be really really awesome

i just want to make sure the lining of my forge isn't going to melt or fall apart or something after all this work haha. i cant realy spend any more money unless i am very mistaken and it's really necessary. (i've spent quite a bit, and it's not even technically for me.. more of a gift)

thanks again!
 
axlfoley said:
i just want to make sure the lining of my forge isn't going to melt or fall apart or something after all this work haha. i
Click to expand...
Then you need to follow a proven design. There are no shortcuts. Experimentation may lead you to an idea that works good enough for you but you're going to spend more money finding that design than you would simply following a proven design and spending the money it takes to do so.

This guy sells the supplies in sizes you will need. It's not Amazon, it's going to cost money, it's not exactly convenient. It'll also get you a forge that will do everything you want it to do.
http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Forge_Supplies.html?no_redirect=true
 
ten-six said:
Then you need to follow a proven design. There are no shortcuts. Experimentation may lead you to an idea that works good enough for you but you're going to spend more money finding that design than you would simply following a proven design and spending the money it takes to do so.

This guy sells the supplies in sizes you will need. It's not Amazon, it's going to cost money, it's not exactly convenient. It'll also get you a forge that will do everything you want it to do.
http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Forge_Supplies.html?no_redirect=true
Click to expand...


Well (first thank you for taking the time to respond my friend!)

also i might not have been quite clear with where i am at in the process.. i've spent a whole lot lot of time researching and learning ...then learning more about things i didn't know i needed to learn lol

but the forge is pretty much built based on proven designs...

it's a standard US home 5lb propane tank (i dont have the demensions in front of me at the moment, but it's appx. 13" diameter x 18" long i believe)

the front cut open and on a hinge that latches shut....the front "door" has a 5"x4" hole cut in it, and there is another hole the same size in the rear that has a the metal cutout welded on a hinge so i can flip the rear opening open or closed (the front i welded a peice of angle iron and a sheet metal platform to the front that i an place a fire brick onto where the front opens..or adust it, or open it so the length of what i'm forging can stick out both sides of the forge (front and rear) and rest on the platform if necessary. also used mapp gas to cut and shape two legs into a triangle shape that i welded onto the bottom so it stays nice and steady and level...

lined with 2" of ceramic blanket ("kaowool")...it's two 24"x48 inch lengths of 1" thickness...lined 2"inch thick on the rear, and interior... i was going to line the front door of the forge by sticking it onto a bunch of finishing nails i tack welded to the interior of the door and was going to use some sodium silicate (waterglass) as an adhesive to stick the ceramic blanket to the front door so it doesn't fall off if the door is opened.

, and the 8" kiln shelf floor will rest on top of the blanket and lines up almost perfectly with the front and rear cutout holes for a nice flush and flat surface to work on inside the forge

... i went with a Riel burner design that comes into a burner port welded on about 30% from the rear (at about ~50 degrees on the side, with a ~20 degree angle forward towards the front so the burner end comes into the forge at a tangent to the ceramic blanket ("kaowool") which will hopefuly creat a "swirl" effect in the forge...but of course i won't be abe to know if i welded the burner port in place correctly until i actually fire it up.

i don't have the specs in front of me at the moment, but i believe the internal area is ~220ish cubic inches, so i went with a single burner design, as i read that would more than sufficient for a forge this size

which leads me to my current status/problem

i went out and bought two big 32oz of imperial high-temp furnace cement (for temps up to 2,700 degrees) and also a 4 quart bag of perlite (based on the advice of a a very old thread on this forum which said that mixing the two at a 4:1 ratio with a bit of water is an easy castable refractory (or maybe refractory cement is the term?)

this was before i knew what kast-o-lite was, and also was (and still am) confused what exactly it is, or what satanite is, or how they differ.


but anyway... that's what i have...i'm about $200 into this project so far....

i need to line the ceramic blanket so it doesn't give me lung cancer when i start up the burner. this is the part i where i'm getting all sorts of conflicting info

can i line the ceramic blanket with the mix of high-temp furnace cement+perlite? (i was going to make it about 1/4" thick)

i have read that perlite melts way below forging temperatures and should not be used for that reason (if that's the case, can i line it with just the high-temp furnace cement alone?)

i have also read that perlite melts (into essentially glass i think) and mixes with the compounds in the high-temp furnace cement when it goes through the curing process... which strengthens it as well as adding more heat refractive properties, and would ake the forge perform better.


obviously these two things i have since learned contradict eachother and i don't know which one is true. can the cement be used on it's own? and would the addition of perlite mixed in increase the performance and retain heat better.?

... or is it going to literally melt down the side of the inside walls of the forge when i attempt to cure it or bring it up to forging temperatures for the first time??

...OR is it just a bad idea in general to use either of these and should i chalk up the money i spent as a waste and buy some kast-o-lite (which i really can't afford at the moment. and again, this is a gift, it's not even technically for me.. although i will be using it plenty assuming it works lol. i'd really really like to not spend any more money and just go ahead with the materials i have if possible (but again, if i do that.. do i mix the perlite, or not?)

if it's absolutely necessary i will hold off and order kast-o-lite....obviously making sure it works is the most important thing. but i dont exactly know what the difference (if any) would be . but i REALLY would prefer not to spend anymore...and also waste this stuff i already bought)


oh also i bought some itc-100..

i was going to put a coat of that on the interior after i line the coating. either with the hihg-temp furnace cement alone.. or mixed with perlite.. or satanite/kast-o-lite if absolutely necessary -- although money is really becomming an issue at the moment and i am penny pinching for other reasons...i've spent quite a bit of time and money though.. double my estimated original budget and i've been researching/workng on this for a few months in my spare time



soooo.... can/should i line the ceramic blanket with the hightemp furnace cement (with or without perlite mixed in 4:1 ratio)...and then put a coat of itc-100 on it


or did i f*ck up by buying this stuff .

i have certainly followed plans though...and i sincerely appreciate your input/concern about that...
here is a photo of the forge about half way through the progress (i have since competed pretty much everything... and now i'm at the step of lining the ceramic blanket/kaowool...and i am very very confused because the internet is full of a lot of contradicting information ...and sometimes downright bad advice (like all the websites saying to line it with friggen portland cement/plaster of paris.. which i am certain is not a good idea... but there's still hundreds of websites and youtube videos suggesting to do it anyway lol.....in the photo there's a 9x4x2.5" fire brick in there i was originally going to use -- before i got the kiln shelf instead.. i have since welded on the burner port, the front platform, etc. i'm also going to pretty it up with a can of high heat flat black spray paint i bought ...i will do that last.)

but this photo was taken about 75% of the way done... i'm almost done now... lining the ceramic blanket is where i desperately would appriciate good reliable straight to the point info
fx9NJU4.jpg


sorry this is lengthy... but i want to stress just what part of the process i am at and what i am confused about. i have spent many hours googling and come up with nothing but vague or contradicting info. that's kinda why i just bullet listed those 10 things..right to the point to clear up what i can't quite figure out. i've been searching a very long time haha. i try not to ask questions unless i am really at a loss and in need of clarification...(and that's where i am now - i dont want to give the impression i am being lazy and just asking someone to hold my hand through the process... i have spent many many hours learning!)

thank you agan for replying.. and reading all this. and thanks in advance if anyone can help me out here.... it seems like simple stuff based on what i'm reading ... to everyone except me i think haha)

cheers mate
 
OK, I'll try and help:
1. satanite - one of the most popular refractory coatings. Works very good. Leaves a smooth surface.
2. refractory cement - a general name for many things. Not specific enough to say yes or no for using as a forge lining.
3. refractory mortar - The term used for assembling fire brick. Probably OK, but not enough info to say if it is good for a forge.
4. castable refractory - This is things like Cast-o-lite 30. It is OK as a forge lining, but pretty rough surface.
5. high temp furnace cement (for temps up to 2,700 degrees F) - Another tern for furnace mortar. This may or may not be OK, as mentioned above.
6. rigidizer - Used to stiffen the wool. Not needed.
7. fire clay - Use to line a fire pan on a coal forge. Not suitable for lining a forge.
8. ceramic coating (which i believe would be a product like ITC-100 i think) - Used as a coating after the forge is lined with a refractory like satanite. It helps reflect the heat back into the chamber. It is good stuff, but expensive. It is not necessary for most forges.
9 (slightly OT) should sodium silicate and/or perlite and/or vermaculite and/or silica sand and/or portland cement and/or regular sand be mixed with any of the above ideally...(or def. not mixed?) _ DO NOT DO THIS!

10. will a 4:1 ratio of high-temp furnace cement and perlite with a bit of water work as a liner to the forge? (about 1/4" - 1/2" thick, then coated with ITC-100). No, you need a more robust lining. It wouldn't last long.

Get some satanite and don't look back. If you already have the ITC-100, after te satanite has been dried and fired (cured), coat it with the ITC-100 and then fire again.
 
I get all my refractory and forge building supplies from HighTempTools and Refractory. Thay ave everything from burner parts to HT supplies.
They ship immediately and the rates are great.

They also have extensive FAQs that tell how to use many of the products and forge building info.
www.hightemptools.com
 
When building my first forge I’d found my kaowool blanket at work. It worked out awesome. Decided to build another bigger forge. I’d found more kaowool at work again but it’d felt different than the original stuff I had. It bent different, cut different and even the santinite went on different. I ASSUMED it was the same thing but a different manufacturer. Built the second one and was starting to cure the santinite, walked to the house, grabbed a beer to celebrate the success of the second forge build, came back to a molten pool pouring outta the front of the forge. I shut it down to figure out wtf just happened. It was a different wool, only rated for like 1800degrees. The original stuff had been over 2200 many times with no problems. So I drowned my sorrows with that beer and busted dried melted wool/glass outta my forge and started over. Point is, if you try to shortcut this you’ll end up with a huge mess and possibly a burnt down shop, neither of which you want to deal with. Follow Stacey’s advice, you won’t regret it.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
OK, I'll try and help:
1. satanite - one of the most popular refractory coatings. Works very good. Leaves a smooth surface.
2. refractory cement - a general name for many things. Not specific enough to say yes or no for using as a forge lining.
3. refractory mortar - The term used for assembling fire brick. Probably OK, but not enough info to say if it is good for a forge.
4. castable refractory - This is things like Cast-o-lite 30. It is OK as a forge lining, but pretty rough surface.
5. high temp furnace cement (for temps up to 2,700 degrees F) - Another tern for furnace mortar. This may or may not be OK, as mentioned above.
6. rigidizer - Used to stiffen the wool. Not needed.
7. fire clay - Use to line a fire pan on a coal forge. Not suitable for lining a forge.
8. ceramic coating (which i believe would be a product like ITC-100 i think) - Used as a coating after the forge is lined with a refractory like satanite. It helps reflect the heat back into the chamber. It is good stuff, but expensive. It is not necessary for most forges.
9 (slightly OT) should sodium silicate and/or perlite and/or vermaculite and/or silica sand and/or portland cement and/or regular sand be mixed with any of the above ideally...(or def. not mixed?) _ DO NOT DO THIS!

10. will a 4:1 ratio of high-temp furnace cement and perlite with a bit of water work as a liner to the forge? (about 1/4" - 1/2" thick, then coated with ITC-100). No, you need a more robust lining. It wouldn't last long.

Get some satanite and don't look back. If you already have the ITC-100, after te satanite has been dried and fired (cured), coat it with the ITC-100 and then fire again.
Click to expand...


i want to hug you right now hahah

i've been trying to figure this all out on my own for a good two months, but i've gotten so much vague and conflicting info.. also i thought satanite and cast-o-lite were the same thing...

having it all point by point like this just made everything finally ive learned up to now but wasn't 100% sure/had some concerns on finally "click".

seriously, thank you (not only for the direct replies to my questions, but for all your previous posts too. there's a lot of of great and friendly and awesomely helpful threads on this forum, but your name is the one i have come across over and over again ...and the reason i signed up here.... you take the time to help and i also i know i can trust you know what you're talking about. there's a lot of people on the internet with good intentions but bad information haha. ...

(which is kinda how i ended up with a bag 20 pound bag of portland cement, a 5 lb bag of sand, 64 oz of high-temp furnace cement, an 8 quart bag of perlite, and a $20 firebrick...none of which i'm going to use. thats like $65 i wasted ....although i might be able to put some of it to use in other ways)

---------------------------
follow up question, i looked up satanite on hightemptools satanite turns out to be way cheaper than i thought...

$5 for a pound + shipping is literally the exact same cost (almost down to the penny) for a "home brew" recipe i already bought of of furnace cement + perlite. i should have bought that to begin with (went on bad advice i found elsewhere initially...same reason i have more sand and portland cement than i will need for the rest of my life now, but no use for it at all as of right now lol)

anyway, will 1 pound of satanite be enough for this forge (as described/details in my previous post), or should i get 5 pounds to be safe?
 
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ps: it also occurred to me, after re-reading my posts, it might sound like i'm penny pinching and trying to make this as cheap as possible, but i should clarify, it's the opposite haha. i've put so much time and effort into this it would be a tragedy if it didn't look and work the way it should, and last a long time

but at the same time, when it's done i'll be somewhere between $200-$300 over my original projected budget for the project, about 2x or 3x as much i planned (and at least $60-$100 of that is down the toilet wasted because its stuff i should not have even bought it all...or just have a ton extra of to last a lifetime....so every dollar i spend at this point hurts & is money i should probably be spending on bills and whatnot haha especially since this is a gift and it's not even going to be mine -- i'll be using it a lot, but still...if i can get away with buying 1 pound of satanite instead of an extra $15 for 5 pounds, i'd rather do that. i'm not penny pinching over the $15 ...it's just that i'm afaid if i spend $15 more than i have to...it's another $15 added onto a list of stuff i don't need/have way more of than necessary...and the cost of all that is starting to add up)

i think the first fellow who replied might have gotten that impression (that i was trying to slap together something as cheap as possible).. which is my own fault for phrasing it the way i did. i apologize if i came off that way


but i am certainly taking all your advice and input and your time is very much appreciated (to all of you!)

as far as the ceramic blanket goes, i'm taking amazon's word that's rated for 2,700. if after all this time/money/research/effort my ceramic blanket ends up melting after firing it up for the first time.... well -- that would suck. i'm not sure what i'd do if that happens. drink/cry maybe? LOL. then start over... the new one would be easier at least now that i know what i'm doing from the start haha.

cheers!
 
I will repeat for future readers ( and for the OP) why you should buy your oven building materials from a place like High Temp Tools and Refractory -
They know how a forge is built and only carry products that actually work in forges. Amazon sells "stuff". HTT&R sells forge building stuff they have tested.
They have FAQs and other info, like the quantities needed, that will help you build a good forge.
They tell you how to mix/apply/use their products.
They have burners/burner kits with all the right parts …. for less than you could cobble one together (especially the right type of regulator).
Their "Forge Gallery" is very helpful for a new person who has never seen or used a forge.
They supply other needed forging products of good quality.
 
Hello!

so it took me another 6 months or so of learning, but it all finally makes sense now (and btw, after spending dozens of not hundreds of hours googling, stacy your posts are continually the ones the top of the results answering the same questions over and over for the last decade or so.... you have the patience of a saint lol. but seriously, thank you for everything you do.

i have taken all your advice, and i apologize for questioning (not because i doubted you, just because i was clueless, and didn't realize how much i needed to learn still). for a while, every time i had a question i thought was straight forward, it's answer was just 3 new questions i didn't even know i had haha

anyway... fastforward almost year since i first sought your advice, and lots of things you said originally now make perfect sense... and i have taken all your advice (and more importantly i understand why you gave it)

anywho... here's where i am

1. using Riel atmospheric burner design
2. i ditched the firebrick like you said, using kiln shelf floor instead.
3. forge is lined with two layers of 1" thick ceramic blanket rated to 3,600 degrees i believe
4. coated the ceramic blanket with satanite i got from high temp tools (still need to put on another 2 coatings....fix some cracks, and re-center the kiln shelf)

here's the latest test fire...so far so good



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last one is an interior shot with the front door open (which only is intended to be open for maintenance/repair/upkeep)


only thing left (after i apply the last coating of satanite and cure it....i purchased 5lbs initially from High temp tools btw)

5. apply ITC-100 (i got 1/4 pint from high temp tools)
6. apply bubble alumina (got 2.5 lbs ...also from HTT)
7. apply a coating of flat black high temp. spray paint (up to 2,000 degrees i believe) on the outside to pretty it up



so aside fom the update/thank you

my main questio here and the important pat of this post... is

a) do i apply the ITC-100 first..cure it....then apply the bubble alumina on the floor
(and about 1/3 up the sides) OVER the itc-100?

or

B) do i apply the itc-100 where i don't plan on spreading the bubble alum?

or

c) do i apply the bubble alumina first, then the itc-100 over that?

also

d) what about the kiln shelf? do i apply either of those on the top of kiln shelf itself? or just underneath and the sides? (i do plan on forge welding so i am concerned about flux ruining this project after i've gotten this far haha)

----
your input helping me finish this would be super appriciated.... and please let me know if the final steps here are me on the right track or if there's anything different you would do
 
one last thing i might as well ask while I'm at it... but does anyone have any good recommendations for the best/most affordable high temp. thermometer/pyrometer + thermocoupler? seems like lots of ebay scams/crap from china/sites i dont trust or only sell parts of what i would need....or thermocouplers that only go up to 300 degrees

i have read a lot of replies in other threads saying to go by a color chart, but i am also color blind, so.... having a rough estimate to go by from a digital temp. reading while i learn to associate it with fine tuning the forge and how its burning in my own way seems like the only possible way for me to learn...

i've learned all about venturi effect, forced air vs atmospheric burner, propane psi, propane to oxygen ratio...interior volume ...rich/reducing vs lean/oxidizing atmospheres ..etc....

but all this seems nil if i dont even know what temperature it's currently firing at full blast (~20psi, back exhaust port slightly open..."white hot" and working fantastically so far..i think...

but...again i am colorblind haha. so..

just wondering if there's any recommendations or go-to sites people here generally use?i couldn't find any recent threads about this topic

btw, this is way less important than my questions in previous post about how to apply the itc-100/bubble alumina to finish it up though.

and seriously...thank you again. all of you (and especially stacy... your effort and time did not go unread, ignored or unappreciated my friend)

Cheers
 
Looks pretty good.

I have one issue. There seems to be far more air and gasses going in than there is space to exit. Maybe a larger hole in the door would be wise. Most folks use a square or tombstone shaped port. It is sort of like plugging up the tail pipe of a car ... the engine won't run right. Looks to me like a 2X3" hole would be a good size. (2x2" minimum)

To read the temp, you will need a ceramic sheath, a type K thermocouple in 8 or 10 gauge, the proper TC wires, blocks, plugs, and a reading device. many folks just use a simple Chinese PID as the reading device. Search the old threads on thermocouples, sheaths, and PID controlled forges. I also believe it is covered in the sticky on forges and such.

You HAVE to use the ceramic sheath tube or the TC will melt and burn up in the flames.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Looks pretty good.

I have one issue. There seems to be far more air and gasses going in than there is space to exit. Maybe a larger hole in the door would be wise. Most folks use a square or tombstone shaped port. It is sort of like plugging up the tail pipe of a car ... the engine won't run right. Looks to me like a 2X3" hole would be a good size. (2x2" minimum)

To read the temp, you will need a ceramic sheath, a type K thermocouple in 8 or 10 gauge, the proper TC wires, blocks, plugs, and a reading device. many folks just use a simple Chinese PID as the reading device. Search the old threads on thermocouples, sheaths, and PID controlled forges. I also believe it is covered in the sticky on forges and such.

You HAVE to use the ceramic sheath tube or the TC will melt and burn up in the flames.
Click to expand...


thanks!

just wondering, would larger hole in the door vs. in the rear would make much of a difference?

also i was planning on applying the itc-100 all over the interior chamber...curing it....
then last (on top of the itc-100) applying bubble alumina on the floor (under the kiln shelf) and about 1/3 up the sides. i think I read you suggest that in another thread.

is that a good plan?
but i was a bit confused if the bubble alumina should go over the itc-100 (or vice versa maybe? the bubble alumina first then the itc-100 over everything?). i'm trying not to over-think it, but very scared of messing this last part up
 
I always have a rear port and a front port. If yours has a rear port, I didn't see it. I like at least 10 sq.in. of port space on an average size forge. That is usually a 2X3" front port and a 2X2" rear port.
 
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