Spanish Fencing Swords, need help.....with everything

[Tdhurl1103]

Hi all,

This is my first post inside the Sword sub, so be gentle with me here. If this belongs in another sub, I apologize.

I have these Spanish Fencing sword set that my father got in Spain on his many travels with the US Navy. He got them sometime in the early to mid 1960s. For many years they were hung on the wall inside my father's home in a crossed sword configuration. After my mother and he divorced in the early 70s my mother had these hung up in our home for a few years until a few dumb kids (my sister and I, haha) pulled them off the wall and used them as fighting (as sisters and brothers will do) implements. We knew nothing of fencing and even less about swords. Anyway, my mother finally got tired of us poking each other with them and removed them from our grasps.
Anyway, they sat in a closet for many years, then were transferred to a storage unit, then a closet again. By this time my sister and I had long left home. In February my Mother passed away, and I found these inside the closet, buried under a myriad of things. They are in pretty rough shape, but I would like to restore them (if possible, or worth it) and hang them on my pwn wall. A few questions might be beneficial in helping me figure out what to do with them.

1. What kind of swords are these? They were not in any sort of mount. They were wired together but, of course, my sister and I un-wired them. Since they were configured to hang on a wall are these decorative (made specifically for wall hanging), or are they actual real fencing swords converted into a decorative piece?
2. If you look at the pics, you can tell there is a significant amount of rust in various areas, areas that would, perhaps, ruin the paint in certain areas. How do I remove the rust in those areas? Or should I even try to?
3. Do I need to have these professionally restored?
4. One sword has a slight bend in the blade, how would I straighten the blade?
5. I have no idea what steell is used in these swords. Would it matter the type of steel for restoration?

Thanks for all who take the time to read all this, and reply. I will be eternally grateful for any assistance provided.

 

[Chris Larrikin]

I am by no means a sword expert but I did fence for several years. I have not encountered these specific weapons but they look like Italian hilt foils. A blade with a thin square cross section and small circular guard suggests they are foils. As far as I know Italian hilt weapons aren't in competition use anymore.

Modern foils have a "set", meaning they are slightly angled from the hilt/ ricasso rather than being in a straight line from pommel to tip. This is to help maintain a good en garde and aid control.

Fencing foils prioritise flexibility and toughness over edge holding (for obvious reasons ) and it's very common for the blade itself to bend after repeated strikes. We always bent them back by hand but be aware that chances are these have been stressed from repeated impacts so might snap if you try.

Cool find and thanks for sharing!

 

[mete]

The one on the left, just above the guard says "Made in Spain " The designs look much more like Spanish than Italian . Blades were typically of 9260 which is a spring steel similar to 5160.
I can't tell from the photos whether or not the plating is gold , nor whether the designs on the guard or blade are just painted or impressed and painted.
I assume they are more decorated swords rather for any use .

 

[Chris Larrikin]

The one on the left, just above the guard says "Made in Spain " The designs look much more like Spanish than Italian . Blades were typically of 9260 which is a spring steel similar to 5160.
I can't tell from the photos whether or not the plating is gold , nor whether the designs on the guard or blade are just painted or impressed and painted.
I assume they are more decorated swords rather for any use .

I am very happy to be corrected there

Thanks for the info re blade steels. I had previously heard different things but all were very inspecific.

 

[Tdhurl1103]

I examined the "painted" areas, and it seems the blade portions and the guard are etched and then filled with a paint. I do not think the gold is "real" gold plating. Would gold plating develop rust?

 

[gadunz]

I fenced for 3 years, decades ago. Don't try to straighten a slight bend, as the blade has found its "true bend" after many successful thrusts.

Decorated foils intended for fence, not just ornament. They need new rubber tips to avoid impalement. The original rubber tips/grommets must've perished off. I could be wrong if the tips aren't or weren't flanged to hold grommets.
If a foil fencer wants a wall-hanger he gets the ancestor of the foil, a sharpened small-sword.
My guess- standard foils decorated for the tourist trade.

 

[cbrstar]

I don't know if this helps any, but I've seen similar ones referred as a "Toledo" after the Spanish city they were made in.

 

[mete]

I was an epee fencer for a good many years . My interest was the sport, swords, and metallurgy.I collected broken swords and examined them . They were European 9260 but 'dirty' steel with lots of inclusions .
The fractures caused by inclusions or nothes from parrying. Later they started making them from maraging steel -the steel which was the subject of my thesis !!! One big circle !

 

[gadunz]

Another tourist trap- Toledo was the base of the best Spanish bladesmiths. Put "Toledo", "Sheffield", "Solingen" or "Maniago" on a fake & demand more money.

The Italian grip is no longer legal for competition due to the danger of injury to the hand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(fencing)

 

[Tdhurl1103]

I'm thinking what some of you are. These were decorative foils for the tourist trade. In looking back and knowing what I know about my father, he had no other culture outside of beer drinking and cigarette smoking, LOL (that's not necessarily a bad thing, just that it seems he bought stuff just to prove he went there, and he certainly wasn't a fencer.)
So, it is completely plausible he got these in a tourist/gift shop and they are not actual competition/real foils.

He also got stuff from Africa and the Middle East that, while interesting, really didn't speak expensive or authentic. I've been to Africa and the Middle east and have seen some of the same sort of stuff they sell in the gift shops.

I think I'll just knock the rust off (gingerly of course), recondition the wood handles and then hang em up on the wall. If the paint comes off, so be it, LOL. No worries.

 

[gadunz]

Not "decorative foils for the tourist trade" but genuine foils made obsolete by the International Fencing Federations ban on crossguards, so the tip flange was apparently filed off, the rest decorated & then sold to tourists.
This rubbish is made specifically for tourists, soiling Toledo's once good name. Caveat emptor.

 

[cbrstar]

Why was the Italian handle banned? Was it because the cross guard could keep your hand too far from the guard? Or would people wrap their finger around the cross guard and it would get broken?

 

[gadunz]

It would get broken.
An Italian-grip foil. It is still in use as the initial teaching weapon in Italy and many other countries that follow the italic pedagogical tradition. While still in use with many classical fencers, most competitive sport fencers use the anatomical grip, with french grip used rarely. The Italian grip is no longer legal for competition due to the danger of injury to the hand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(fencing)

 

[Tdhurl1103]

So these are obsolete foils decorated for the tourist trade?

Interesting.

Thanks all who have responded so far. I'm learning quite a bit about fencing swords. I actually read the wiki page links provided and I'm not a sword collector. Thanks!!

 

[kaotikross]

I owned almost the exact same set, bought at a yard sale, and in a shield-type wall plaque thing made of wood. Same grips, same everything,except the grip were white lucite-type fake pearl plastic.They're a bit smaller than actual foils, quite a bit, I'd bet, if these are the same as mine were. The paint on the blade, all that, 100% identical. They came blunt but not with an actual blunt point, or much of one anyway. I was new to collecting then, but i'd reckon they're strictly decorator items, after handing numerous actual foils, epees, etc. Whats the length from pommel to tip?

 

[kaotikross]

Ok, here it is. My friend actually still has one of them, and the plaque. The other is broke. He added one he got somewhere, that's the one on the right. The one on the left is one of the originals I got in a set of two, in the plaque. Sorry for his crappy pic, but you now get the idea. Looks strictly like a 1960's-70's decorator item.View attachment 576822

 

[gadunz]

Whats the length from pommel to tip?

90cm/35.4" blade. Tang length varies according to grip.
While still in use with many classical fencers, most competitive sport fencers use the anatomical grip, with french grip used rarely.
French grip

Anatomical (pistol) grip

 

[Mecha]

That kind of grip looks like an exaggerated, theoretical design that's hoped to give an advantage in sport swordsmanship. Is there evidence of historical fighting swords that have eccentric finger hooks and such?

 

[gadunz]

The modern anatomical grips really improve the fencer's speed & control.
The OP's examples were about as exaggerated as it got, a sentimental remnant from when even fencing included pummelling with the pommel, tripping, grappling, & the use of a buckler, a blunt bendy dagger or both in the off hand.
Damned Victorians. They sanitised fencing. Long live Historical Fencing Societies. I would've fenced for at least 2 more yrs if I had a a dagger or buckler in my off hand, instead of it flopping there ineffectually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pguglWJko0A

 

[mete]

Mecha , there have been many weird handles for foil or epee. They MUST fit your hand or you will have problems. They do make for firmer grip thus harder parries .
The old swords had some weird handles too and varying methods of holding them. I never used them so I couldn't comment . Check through that fantastic list of sword photos recently posted ,should be something there !