Spyderco Paysan - lock slip?

grumpy514 said:
Regardless of the apparent issue, for the majority of the people who carry their knives would't this issue be null to most given the situations in using their knife? What scenario would it have to be for this lock to fail? Stabbed into a tree and then hanging off it?
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From the video it sure looks like something that could happen to you if you were to cut a lot of heavy cardboard... sometimes the blade gets stuck, then you're rocking it back and forth to get it unstuck... well o_O
This just shouldn't be a thing at all, period.

Funny you mention your new 52100 PM2, I recently got one of these and mine still has so much clicky, gritty, rough lock stick that every other day I'm contemplating sending it in.
Spydiechef came with heavy lock stick, too, got better within a week of continueous flicking. Did not notice the lock face moving under pressure yet, though...
 
c5ct said:
Then tell me how shirogorov with the steel insert and crk with the ceramic ball lock face nailed it.(I’ve had the regular TI lock bar fail before on a small senebza no ceramic like the inkosi or umnum) Both knives would both break before the lock slipped. I’ve tried. Design flaw..End if story.
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Because it comes down to the lock geometry, not the lock materials. When you change contact materials, your coefficient of friction between the two surfaces changes, and the angle of the tang might need to change as well. Steel or ceramic on steel would need a more shallow contact angle than titanium on steel, for example. Shiro and CRK do this correctly.
 
grumpy514 said:
What scenario would it have to be for this lock to fail? Stabbed into a tree and then hanging off it?
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Getting the knife wedged in material during a heavy cut, then trying to pull it out. Or working in confined spaces and accidentally knocking the spine on something as you're moving around. Or doing a heavy piercing sort of cut with the tip in any fashion where the load on the tip is not directed towards the stop pin or blade pivot.

Or, not that I personally like to carry anything that folds for this purpose, but if you have a folder that is intended for SD or "tactical" use.
 
grumpy514 said:
What are you doing in this video? Are you trying to close the blade while it's open? At first i thought your thumb was moving the lockbar.



****EDIT

I just tried mine. =(. It definitely shows the same symptoms of yours. I put some cut proof gloves on and tested a bunch of my frame lock knives. The Paysan has a very noticeable shift & Audible noise. You can watch the actual lock torque & move around, I won't go to the extent of spine whacking it though.

My Spydiechef also moves slightly, no audible noise and about 1/4 as bad as the Paysan...

Has anyone sent their Paysan in for warranty yet? I think I may and see if they can come up with anything. I've been meaning to send in one of my NIB PM2s (52100) that has hellacious lock stick when deploying, very loud click when unlocking it.



Regardless of the apparent issue, for the majority of the people who carry their knives would't this issue be null to most given the situations in using their knife? What scenari


A good example of when this slip and can cut you pretty badly is, imagine slipping the blade under say a zip tie or nylon box strap spine against box or item zip tied and pulling up on the handle to cut the strap. Bam blade closes right on your fingers. I’ve had a lock fail on a small sebenza doing exactly that luckily didn’t get cut, and am very careful if I do that again. Another time using the back of the tip of a nirvana to scribe a line on a piece of wood and the light pressure caused the lock to fail.
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grumpy514 said:
What are you doing in this video? Are you trying to close the blade while it's open? At first i thought your thumb was moving the lockbar.



****EDIT

I just tried mine. =(. It definitely shows the same symptoms of yours. I put some cut proof gloves on and tested a bunch of my frame lock knives. The Paysan has a very noticeable shift & Audible noise. You can watch the actual lock torque & move around, I won't go to the extent of spine whacking it though.

My Spydiechef also moves slightly, no audible noise and about 1/4 as bad as the Paysan...

Has anyone sent their Paysan in for warranty yet? I think I may and see if they can come up with anything. I've been meaning to send in one of my NIB PM2s (52100) that has hellacious lock stick when deploying, very loud click when unlocking it.



Regardless of the apparent issue, for the majority of the people who carry their knives would't this issue be null to most given the situations in using their knife? What scenario would it have to be for this lock to fail? Stabbed into a tree and then hanging off it?
Click to expand...


HerrBlackwood it doesn’t take much effort at all. Here’s mine.



A good example of when this slip and can cut you pretty badly is, imagine slipping the blade under say a zip tie or nylon box strap spine against box or item zip tied and pulling up on the handle to cut the strap. Bam blade closes right on your fingers. I’ve had a lock fail on a small sebenza doing exactly that luckily didn’t get cut, and am very careful if I do that again. Another time using the back of the tip of a nirvana to scribe a line on a piece of wood and the light pressure caused the lock to fail.
 
marrenmiller said:
Because it comes down to the lock geometry, not the lock materials. When you change contact materials, your coefficient of friction between the two surfaces changes, and the angle of the tang might need to change as well. Steel or ceramic on steel would need a more shallow contact angle than titanium on steel, for example. Shiro and CRK do this correctly.
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My issue was his. Comment was why are people surprised by this. It shouldn’t slip if done correctly.
 
I'll be sending in my Paysan here tomorrow to Spyderco to see if they will fix the issue or warranty the knife, I will keep everyone posted here. The detent doesn't bother me at all on the knife, now this has been brought to my attention and I tested mine and it indeed does have a good amount of lock rock...that doesn't quite jive with me too well.. especially on a $520.00 knife. So I will send it in and hopefully Spyderco will be able to rectify this.

I'll be sending in 1-2 NIB PM2s that have lockstick as well.
 
Wondering out loud here, so might be totally off base, but whatever. How much of this could be a result of variation in the thermal expansion of the Ti during manufacture meaning that production models have a higher range of variation? Also how much will surface finish, oxidation, anodization have in regards to slip?
I've only owned a couple liner-locks, I don't particularly like them, so maybe this is just my lack of knowledge showing. Is it possible that the window between stick and slip is just too narrow with certain material combinations?
As an example, I've have heard guys swear up and down that they can feel the difference in shave with the same razor off two different stones of the same grit. Even to the point that the type of stone mattered more than the actual grit of the individual stone. Could it be that something as simple as direction of grind, backing/ support, or even type of abrasive used at any step of production (even cutting method) might mean that one knife ends up with a 0.01 degree or 0.002 inch allowable tolerance where as another might have twice that window?
Also not to discount anyone's experience or desires as a buyer, but often I'm reminded of the Top Gear car reviews. "you'd think for a half million pounds, the seat would be adjustable for a wider range of heights than you find on a Paris runway, but who cares, it goes like hell and sticks to the track like a French limpet on the Rainbow Warrior" Maybe there are certain things that are just not engineered to the point of failure? I honestly don't know how this stuff is done, but I can imagine that there are still a dozen or more variables in lock geometry that are not fully understood, insofar as tolerance stacking. I do know that very often a wiggle in one place can cause wear or unexpected behavior in another because calculating vector forces is obscenely complex.

Not disputing the facts of the matter, just wondering more about the why, it seems like Ti framelocks is a hard thing to manufacture, yet lots of companies do it.
 
GG:

I think that you're over-thinking this! In your second paragraph, you have the gist of it correctly apart from mistakenly referring to this type of lock as liner-lock, which you have then correctly stated in your last paragraph. This is was I was referring to:

"I've only owned a couple liner-locks, I don't particularly like them, so maybe this is just my lack of knowledge showing. Is it possible that the window between stick and slip is just too narrow with certain material combinations?"

IMO because utilizing this type of lock requires correcting the challenging geometry by whatever means necessary (well designed steel insert, ceramic detent ball, etc) Spyderco whiffed on this one specially when the blade is such a beefy chunk of S90V which from what I have also observed, is not necessarily ground that thinly either in the primary grind.

I really wanted to luv this pattern but the more that I read and find out about it, the more I become discouraged from being merely hesitant in ever owning one :rolleyes:
 
inkynate said:
I can't believe people still act surprised that frame locks are susceptible to this. It's 2019 people! :eek: The list is loooong and well documented across production manufacturers, mid-techs, and customs. :confused:

As a lefty I've never been into frame locks anyway, but I never got their wild popularity or reputation as a "hard use" lock. For the most part, it seems like locks that fail even weak spine whack tests aren't much of an issue for people in everyday use though. Maybe that's why their dominance persists? I.e., the massive ZT threads where people were shocked, SHOCKED, and then ultimately didn't care lol.

Not trying to defend the Paysan in particular or say it shouldn't have better QC/tolerances/whatever, but at this point I'm not sure why people expect what they do from frame locks anymore.

Even perfect out-of-the-box specimins will wear over time. Lock stick... unacceptable. Steel inserts may actually make them even more prone to shifting/whack-failure. Late lockup is unacceptable. It developed up and down play. Etc... :rolleyes:

GLTA
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I don’t really think the idea that “any framelock can be caused to fail,” means that one cannot identify when a frame/linerlock is not behaving as it should.
 
Casinostocks said:
GG:

I think that you're over-thinking this! In your second paragraph, you have the gist of it correctly apart from mistakenly referring to this type of lock as liner-lock, which you have then correctly stated in your last paragraph. This is was I was referring to:

"I've only owned a couple liner-locks, I don't particularly like them, so maybe this is just my lack of knowledge showing. Is it possible that the window between stick and slip is just too narrow with certain material combinations?"

IMO because utilizing this type of lock requires correcting the challenging geometry by whatever means necessary (well designed steel insert, ceramic detent ball, etc) Spyderco whiffed on this one specially when the blade is such a beefy chunk of S90V which from what I have also observed, is not necessarily ground that thinly either in the primary grind.

I really wanted to luv this pattern but the more that I read and find out about it, the more I become discouraged from being merely hesitant in ever owning one :rolleyes:
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Yeah, I'll agree to part of it. Not mistaken on what I've owned though, as there is no mechanical difference between a frame lock and a liner lock, I said what I meant. I can see how the conclusion could be drawn though.
 
Just to add another piece of information from just one user about just one Paysan in here. I got bored and decided what the hell, and so I took mine and did a bout a dozen hard spine whack tests just on my desktop this morning. No movement or failure on my example, everything felt as solid as I would expect.

Again, just one data point among many, for what it's worth. I'm liking the knife more and more.
 
halden.doerge said:
Just to add another piece of information from just one user about just one Paysan in here. I got bored and decided what the hell, and so I took mine and did a bout a dozen hard spine whack tests just on my desktop this morning. No movement or failure on my example, everything felt as solid as I would expect.

Again, just one data point among many, for what it's worth. I'm liking the knife more and more.
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I’ll be interested to see if lockup issues is actually only affecting a small number of the Paysans. When people pay that money for a knife with issues I can see them raising alot of noise and people being shocked by it.

If it’s really only a few knives with lockup issues then that is still regrettable but pretty common for there to be lemons in any knife model, especially on a newly introduced model.

How’s the detent on yours? Can you easily inertia shake the blade open?
 
Lapedog said:
I’ll be interested to see if lockup issues is actually only affecting a small number of the Paysans. When people pay that money for a knife with issues I can see them raising alot of noise and people being shocked by it.

If it’s really only a few knives with lockup issues then that is still regrettable but pretty common for there to be lemons in any knife model, especially on a newly introduced model.

How’s the detent on yours? Can you easily inertia shake the blade open?
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You can shake it open, but you have to try, it doesn't just fall out. It's perfectly safe for use, but of course I would have preferred it to be stiffer.
 
It's seeming, based on what I'm hearing, that this is not a universal (or even common) problem, but when present, it's quite serious. The big question, then, becomes how Spyderco handles the situation for affected buyers. Here's hoping they make it right for them.
 
I've emailed Spyderco about the issue the other day and currently awaiting a response. My guess is they will just tell me to send it in to see if anything could be done. Possibly exchange it out for a non- lock stock Paysan if they exist?

Is there anyone in here that's confirmed there are people out there who's Paysan doesnt show this symptom? Rocking the black back and foruth while the knife is deployed. Mine has a very audible noise and you can visually see the bar moving a bit.
 
Thankfully, my Paysan shows no lock-slip or lock-rock.As you can see from the side view, the lock bar insert sits flush with the tang of the bladeR1047342.JPG
 
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