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Spyderco Paysan - lock slip?

Discussion in 'Spyderco' started by razor-edge-knives, May 23, 2019.

  1. halden.doerge

    halden.doerge I'll Sharpen Your Knife Gold Member

    Aug 17, 2014
    Yeah, you know, #harduse kinda stuff.
     
    John_0917 likes this.
  2. newronic

    newronic

    9
    May 29, 2019
    From the video it sure looks like something that could happen to you if you were to cut a lot of heavy cardboard... sometimes the blade gets stuck, then you're rocking it back and forth to get it unstuck... well o_O
    This just shouldn't be a thing at all, period.

    Funny you mention your new 52100 PM2, I recently got one of these and mine still has so much clicky, gritty, rough lock stick that every other day I'm contemplating sending it in.
    Spydiechef came with heavy lock stick, too, got better within a week of continueous flicking. Did not notice the lock face moving under pressure yet, though...
     
    insta9ves and marrenmiller like this.
  3. marrenmiller

    marrenmiller Basic Member Basic Member

    943
    Apr 6, 2017
    Because it comes down to the lock geometry, not the lock materials. When you change contact materials, your coefficient of friction between the two surfaces changes, and the angle of the tang might need to change as well. Steel or ceramic on steel would need a more shallow contact angle than titanium on steel, for example. Shiro and CRK do this correctly.
     
    Yo Mama likes this.
  4. marrenmiller

    marrenmiller Basic Member Basic Member

    943
    Apr 6, 2017
    Getting the knife wedged in material during a heavy cut, then trying to pull it out. Or working in confined spaces and accidentally knocking the spine on something as you're moving around. Or doing a heavy piercing sort of cut with the tip in any fashion where the load on the tip is not directed towards the stop pin or blade pivot.

    Or, not that I personally like to carry anything that folds for this purpose, but if you have a folder that is intended for SD or "tactical" use.
     
    Yo Mama, insta9ves and c5ct like this.
  5. c5ct

    c5ct

    4
    Mar 8, 2011

    HerrBlackwood it doesn’t take much effort at all. Here’s mine.




    A good example of when this slip and can cut you pretty badly is, imagine slipping the blade under say a zip tie or nylon box strap spine against box or item zip tied and pulling up on the handle to cut the strap. Bam blade closes right on your fingers. I’ve had a lock fail on a small sebenza doing exactly that luckily didn’t get cut, and am very careful if I do that again. Another time using the back of the tip of a nirvana to scribe a line on a piece of wood and the light pressure caused the lock to fail.
     
    insta9ves and marrenmiller like this.
  6. c5ct

    c5ct

    4
    Mar 8, 2011
    My issue was his. Comment was why are people surprised by this. It shouldn’t slip if done correctly.
     
    marrenmiller likes this.
  7. marrenmiller

    marrenmiller Basic Member Basic Member

    943
    Apr 6, 2017
    I get that. I'm only elaborating on your comment, which is totally correct.
     
    c5ct likes this.
  8. grumpy514

    grumpy514 Gold Member Gold Member

    310
    Jul 3, 2011
    I'll be sending in my Paysan here tomorrow to Spyderco to see if they will fix the issue or warranty the knife, I will keep everyone posted here. The detent doesn't bother me at all on the knife, now this has been brought to my attention and I tested mine and it indeed does have a good amount of lock rock...that doesn't quite jive with me too well.. especially on a $520.00 knife. So I will send it in and hopefully Spyderco will be able to rectify this.

    I'll be sending in 1-2 NIB PM2s that have lockstick as well.
     
  9. gadgetgeek

    gadgetgeek

    May 19, 2007
    Wondering out loud here, so might be totally off base, but whatever. How much of this could be a result of variation in the thermal expansion of the Ti during manufacture meaning that production models have a higher range of variation? Also how much will surface finish, oxidation, anodization have in regards to slip?
    I've only owned a couple liner-locks, I don't particularly like them, so maybe this is just my lack of knowledge showing. Is it possible that the window between stick and slip is just too narrow with certain material combinations?
    As an example, I've have heard guys swear up and down that they can feel the difference in shave with the same razor off two different stones of the same grit. Even to the point that the type of stone mattered more than the actual grit of the individual stone. Could it be that something as simple as direction of grind, backing/ support, or even type of abrasive used at any step of production (even cutting method) might mean that one knife ends up with a 0.01 degree or 0.002 inch allowable tolerance where as another might have twice that window?
    Also not to discount anyone's experience or desires as a buyer, but often I'm reminded of the Top Gear car reviews. "you'd think for a half million pounds, the seat would be adjustable for a wider range of heights than you find on a Paris runway, but who cares, it goes like hell and sticks to the track like a French limpet on the Rainbow Warrior" Maybe there are certain things that are just not engineered to the point of failure? I honestly don't know how this stuff is done, but I can imagine that there are still a dozen or more variables in lock geometry that are not fully understood, insofar as tolerance stacking. I do know that very often a wiggle in one place can cause wear or unexpected behavior in another because calculating vector forces is obscenely complex.

    Not disputing the facts of the matter, just wondering more about the why, it seems like Ti framelocks is a hard thing to manufacture, yet lots of companies do it.
     
  10. Casinostocks

    Casinostocks Factotum Platinum Member

    Mar 20, 2016
    GG:

    I think that you're over-thinking this! In your second paragraph, you have the gist of it correctly apart from mistakenly referring to this type of lock as liner-lock, which you have then correctly stated in your last paragraph. This is was I was referring to:

    "I've only owned a couple liner-locks, I don't particularly like them, so maybe this is just my lack of knowledge showing. Is it possible that the window between stick and slip is just too narrow with certain material combinations?"

    IMO because utilizing this type of lock requires correcting the challenging geometry by whatever means necessary (well designed steel insert, ceramic detent ball, etc) Spyderco whiffed on this one specially when the blade is such a beefy chunk of S90V which from what I have also observed, is not necessarily ground that thinly either in the primary grind.

    I really wanted to luv this pattern but the more that I read and find out about it, the more I become discouraged from being merely hesitant in ever owning one :rolleyes:
     
  11. Lapedog

    Lapedog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 7, 2016
    I don’t really think the idea that “any framelock can be caused to fail,” means that one cannot identify when a frame/linerlock is not behaving as it should.
     
  12. gadgetgeek

    gadgetgeek

    May 19, 2007
    Yeah, I'll agree to part of it. Not mistaken on what I've owned though, as there is no mechanical difference between a frame lock and a liner lock, I said what I meant. I can see how the conclusion could be drawn though.
     
  13. halden.doerge

    halden.doerge I'll Sharpen Your Knife Gold Member

    Aug 17, 2014
    Just to add another piece of information from just one user about just one Paysan in here. I got bored and decided what the hell, and so I took mine and did a bout a dozen hard spine whack tests just on my desktop this morning. No movement or failure on my example, everything felt as solid as I would expect.

    Again, just one data point among many, for what it's worth. I'm liking the knife more and more.
     
    Lapedog and Dadpool like this.
  14. Lapedog

    Lapedog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 7, 2016
    I’ll be interested to see if lockup issues is actually only affecting a small number of the Paysans. When people pay that money for a knife with issues I can see them raising alot of noise and people being shocked by it.

    If it’s really only a few knives with lockup issues then that is still regrettable but pretty common for there to be lemons in any knife model, especially on a newly introduced model.

    How’s the detent on yours? Can you easily inertia shake the blade open?
     
  15. halden.doerge

    halden.doerge I'll Sharpen Your Knife Gold Member

    Aug 17, 2014
    You can shake it open, but you have to try, it doesn't just fall out. It's perfectly safe for use, but of course I would have preferred it to be stiffer.
     
    Lapedog likes this.
  16. NickShabazz

    NickShabazz Platinum Member Platinum Member

    284
    Aug 10, 2014
    It's seeming, based on what I'm hearing, that this is not a universal (or even common) problem, but when present, it's quite serious. The big question, then, becomes how Spyderco handles the situation for affected buyers. Here's hoping they make it right for them.
     
    drwbck3 and halden.doerge like this.
  17. grumpy514

    grumpy514 Gold Member Gold Member

    310
    Jul 3, 2011
    I've emailed Spyderco about the issue the other day and currently awaiting a response. My guess is they will just tell me to send it in to see if anything could be done. Possibly exchange it out for a non- lock stock Paysan if they exist?

    Is there anyone in here that's confirmed there are people out there who's Paysan doesnt show this symptom? Rocking the black back and foruth while the knife is deployed. Mine has a very audible noise and you can visually see the bar moving a bit.
     
  18. aboynamedsue

    aboynamedsue Gold Member Gold Member

    43
    Feb 10, 2015
    Thankfully, my Paysan shows no lock-slip or lock-rock.As you can see from the side view, the lock bar insert sits flush with the tang of the blade R1047342.JPG
     
    4mer_FMF likes this.
  19. nightman

    nightman Gold Member Gold Member

    418
    May 17, 2010
    Maybe this knife needs a titanium lock bar insert.
     
  20. halden.doerge

    halden.doerge I'll Sharpen Your Knife Gold Member

    Aug 17, 2014
    Lol, someday it'll be a thing.
     

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