Spyderench vs Byrdrench

S

Skeletool

Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
17
On the website, the Spyderench http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=286 is photographed as being available in both plain and combo edge with only 440C available for the blade and "investment cast 17-4ph corrosion resistant stainless steel" throughout.

The Byrdrench http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=241 is described as merely "stainless" with the same standard 8Cr13MoV blade material found throughout the Byrd line.

Am I missing something here or can't a combo edge be built in the latter material as illustrated here http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=301 and why would I want 440c in the Spyderench version and not the Byrdrench? (not to mention this, I'm assuming, 'different' stainless described a bit more glowingly?).

Thanks for any help; as we're talking $25 extra for the Spyderench also.

Edit: See Posts #8 & 10
 
good question Skeletool.....I have a byrdwrench only.... looks virtually identical to the Spyderwrench except for the plainedge blade on mine vs. the comboedge on the Spyderwrench....I'm no steel expert but i believe 440c is slightly more corrosion resistant :confused: as Spyderco made their Whale Rescue blade from this: http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=279
the byrd steel is very corrosion resistant in my experience :)
 
That description needs to be updated. The new Spyderenches are AUS-8. The originals were 440C.

I'm sure they could build either a serrated or combo edge for the Byrdrench, and probably will in the future, as long as the current offering sells well.
 
Thank you both for the info.
I haven't had much luck in finding out much about either of these in terms of what the original models were like or who cared for them or not. They seem to be almost the perfect compliment to other multitools out there; yet I'd like to hear from folks such as yourself before I make the decision to lust after either. I still don't understand either why they would tout this "17-4ph" stainless (not a term I'm familiar with) on one tool and not the other; unless this is where the extra money is going. Did a little research on the 440C material here on the Blade Forum; yet can find no direct comparisons with the 8Cr13MoV to make an intelligent choice.
Thanks again for your help.

Joe Talmadge:
"...440C was the king
of stainless cutlery steels in the 1980s, before ATS-34 took the title
in the 1990s. All three resist rust well, with 440A being the most
rust resistant, and 440C the least...440C is fairly
ubiquitous, and is generally considered a very good general-use
stainless, tougher and more stain resistant than ATS-34 but with less
edge-holding and weaker..."

Edit: See Posts #8 & 10
 
If I recall correctly, 17-4ph is an investment cast, precipitation hardened steel, a process that was more than a little expensive to do when they started making the T01. A few years of advances may have taken care of that, or they may have simply settled on a different steel or manufacturing process to reduce the cost.

For my use, AUS8 and 8Cr13MoV hold up a little better than 440C, but I so seldom use the knife blade on a multi-tool that it really doesn't matter. The Rench is a good tool by and large, but it has some shortcomings. The weight and bulk are managable, but I always found the screwdriver bits somewhat short in use. (I don't like the new Leatherman Wave for the same reason). The almost worthless small Phillips/detent of the original has been replaced with a simple punch end. I wish they could have made it work with a #1 Phillips tip, but at least the punch doesn't round out screwheads like the original tended to. The adjustable end wrench compares favorably with a Crescent Tools 4", and being able to seperate the tool and use the screwdriver and wrench at the same time is great. It would be nice if there was some way to secure the bits in their storage places while using the long screwdriver, though. I always end up putting them in my shirt pocket after I pick them up when they fall out.

All in all, I'm glad to see it back in the line-up.
 
A great review and one that is much appreciated, yablanowitz.
If this tool has been around; it is curious to me that there are not more satisfied (or not) owners out there with an opinion on it. I would be using the blade on this as basically one of the few knives that I own....so I am a little cautious when more than one person doesn't look at 440C very 'highly' as either a good edge-holder or even a '21st century' alloy commonly used by leaders in the industry. I'm hoping that Spyderco simply missed the boat (several times) in the description of this tool; as there would be no reason to save $25 on a tool simply described as 'stainless'...or spend $25 more to receive a blade consisting of a much older alloy that couldn't even make the Byrd line to begin with (and which doesn't seem to be in wide use or favor on this forum).

$150 for a multitool today is a pretty good price and I would pay it if one knew what they were getting either by description or even consensus review. I think that I will sit out my first Spyderco purchase to either see if anybody else has ever bought one of these things or wait until something similiar comes along at perhaps even a bit more competitive price (price isn't an issue if you have the best tool out there; yet I want to see at the very least a correct 'picture' of the darn thing...before I buy it!). :)

By the way, I am not knocking Spyderco here and perceive them as most likely my 'go to' knife supplier by measure of their affordable Byrd line and maybe even this new "Tenacious" in the same alloy. I'm all over this movement to put decent knives in the hands of the average Joe (finally)....just a little cautious when introduced to two tools with the same basic name...from the same company. ;)

Edit: See Posts #8 and 10
 
Hi Skeltool,

The Rench has been a very challenging and difficult model to manufacture. We've been trying for 10 years.

Current models are being made in Taiwan (AUS-8) SpydeRench which is limited production, and the byrdrench, made in China (8Cr13MoV) which we still cannot make enough to meet demand.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Skeltool,
The Rench has been a very challenging and difficult model to manufacture. We've been trying for 10 years.
Current models are being made in Taiwan (AUS-8) SpydeRench which is limited production, and the byrdrench, made in China (8Cr13MoV) which we still cannot make enough to meet demand.
sal
Click to expand...

While I appreciate your taking the time to respond; I guess that I was expecting a little more from your reply than how difficult these were to make; how popular they were and a reference to "AUS 8" that I cannot locate anywhere on your website. I felt that every one of my questions above were not only legitimate but sincerely designed to help Spyderco avoid confusion in terms of what maybe their 'less bright' potential customers have observed.

Just trying to help you guys out and get some info at the same time....
 
Possible reasons for the shortage of opinions:

1) There simply aren't that many of them out there, either the originals or the new ones. Production has always been limited.

2) Many of those are in the hands of collectors who don't use them. Limited numbers + high cost = collector's item.

The steel of the blade is a small part of the cost. The frame is a much larger part of that cost. The frame steel of the ByrdRench may well be something less than the 17-4ph of the original, and as such, not worth identifying. For that matter, I doubt "17-4ph" has any meaning to the average person. "Stainless steel" they can relate to.

8Cr13MoV is the best knife steel Sal could get in China, so that is what is being used in the Byrdrench for the blade. AUS8 is the best knife steel I have seen from Taiwan, and that is what is being used in the current production Spyderench. Are you sensing a pattern there? Sal uses the best materials he can get in the manufacturing country without running the price through the stratosphere.

The new 'Rench is listed on the website as "Available soon".
I found it by browsing products by blade steel, under AUS8. From the pictures, my wish has come true, the punch replaces the straight end of the diamond file/extended bit and they put a better #1 Phillips on the other end. BRAVO!

440C is good steel, but there are much better steels available in my opinion. I work building maintenance, repairing and renovating apartments. I get into a lot of materials that are abrasive enough to eat a knife edge in minutes. I like high vanadium steels for that reason, and vanadium is one thing that 440C lacks. AUS8 has some, which may be why it works better for my use.

Always bear in mind that we actually have three different tools under discussion here: the original SpydeRench with a 440C blade which has been out of production for several years, the ByrdRench with 8Cr13MoV blade which is currently available, and the new SpydeRench with AUS8 blade which is in limited production now.
 
yablanowitz said:
"That description needs to be updated. The new Spyderenches are AUS-8. The originals were 440C.."
Click to expand...

yablanowitz said:
"..I found it by browsing products by blade steel, under AUS8..."
Click to expand...

Since the original link has now been corrected without acknowledgement... should I now go back and simply delete my original post(s) as opposed to inquiring about any previous or further questions of Spyderco directly?

Thanks for your help once again, yablanowitz (on second thought, I'm not going to bother asking again).
 
Actually, you may find the original listed as well as the new model. Spyderco has a new webmaster who is working his butt off to get the website up-to-date, including getting discontinued models and information listed for reference purposes as well as correcting information on current models. It isn't an easy job, especially since Sal usually has a couple dozen projects in the works at any given time, not counting incremental upgrades to existing models, such as new steel ;). He recently said they have discontinued some 80 models over the last 25 years, and a while back he mentioned about forty more new models in the pipeline :eek:.
 
I have & use a Spyderench for work. I was able to compare it and the Byrd side by side at the SFO prior to purchase. There are some differences when given that opportunity. Two that come to mind are the Spyder' has a magnet embedded in the bit holder for positive retention, and it has a diamond embedded/coated file. The Byrd wasn't so endowed. I believe just these two "options" alone significantly increase production costs. The other thing I noted, is that since the blade is so well nested within the tool, the T01's round hole provides a better purchase for opeing than does the Byrd's slightly smaller (less round) design.
As for AUS-8, several earlier gen Spyderco's so equipped such as Delica's & Endura's apparently faired quite well to their users.
If it makes you feel better, the Byrds actually cost more than the one with a Spyder on it's clip at the SFO. Some Spydies are sold there slightly below MSP, Byrds are not. However, having been there yesterday, Bryds are in stock, the T01 is not. If I had a choice, meaning I could locate the Spyder version, I would jump on it.
 
Actually, Skeletool, if you would broaden your search, it should be no problem to find descriptions of the properties of AUS-8, 8Cr13MoV, and 440C....enough to make an intelligent decision as far as it can be made. It is a common mistake of someone, who hasn't spend much time with this stuff to assume that there have been earthshaking break throughs in the blade steels. 440C was a good blade steel and remains a good blade steel, and not something "out of the last century". If you want to be accurate, even ZDP-189, on of the hottest new blade steels is actually "out of the last century" as it has been around for a while, it just has never been used in blades.

Sal already described together with Yab the reason for the decision of blade steels, and instead of filling you with some sales hocuspocus, he gave you the straight up answer: Best steels available in a certain production country...could you ask for more? If you look at the steel selection through out the Spyderco line, it should be obvious that blade steel quality is one thing that you do not have to worry about.

Instead of getting so hung up on the materials in search for the $25 difference, you should probably be focussing more on the labor cost, country of origin and connected with both the fit and finish of the product. You can make up $25 in a hurry with just those three "items on the bill".

As to the 17-4ph steel. This is a precipitation hardening steel, commonly used in car. As such, it is probably very corrosion resistance, it should also be fairly tough. H-1 is also a precipitation hardening steel, but since it is hard to come by any information about H-1, it is hard to say how they compare. Common stainless steel usually describes a 300 or low 400 grad stainless steel, which is just fine for the body of a wrench. Depending whether jaws or other parts of the wrench are hardened, I would find a 400 grad stainless more likely (these are only guesses though).
 
Quoted by HoB:
"Actually, Skeletool, if you would broaden your search, it should be no problem to find descriptions of the properties of AUS-8, 8Cr13MoV, and 440C....enough to make an intelligent decision as far as it can be made..."

My original search (and posts for that matter) only involved 440C on account of the website (first) claiming that the Spyderench was only available in that material. AUS-8 wasn't even on my radar screen until yablanowitz graciously offerred (with no confirmation from anybody) that something was not correct in this regard.

"...It is a common mistake of someone, who hasn't spend much time with this stuff to assume that there have been earthshaking break throughs in the blade steels. 440C was a good blade steel and remains a good blade steel, and not something "out of the last century"...."

My reference here was to even companies like Buck dropping this formulation decades ago and the lack of significant representation in even Spyderco's catalogue today. Spyderco was advertising it in this new tool...I simply wanted to know why.

"...If you want to be accurate, even ZDP-189, on of the hottest new blade steels is actually "out of the last century" as it has been around for a while, it just has never been used in blades. Sal already described together with Yab the reason for the decision of blade steels, and instead of filling you with some sales hocuspocus, he gave you the straight up answer: Best steels available in a certain production country...could you ask for more?..."

I like to be accurate and was hoping to sincerely help Spyderco be accurate as well while educating me at the same time. Just to set the record straight...'Yab' actually gave me the answer to at least some of what I thought were pretty legitimate questions above...and I thank him for it. If I indeed asked for more than I should have or did so in far to much of a 'newbie' manner...well then I certainly apoligize for doing so.

"...If you look at the steel selection through out the Spyderco line, it should be obvious that blade steel quality is one thing that you do not have to worry about..."

When 440C was quoted; only two Spyderco knives presently available to us sported it. If that was a ringing endorsement of what Spyderco was going to provide in the near future in regards to steel quality...sorry, but I wasn't necessarily buying it.

"...Instead of getting so hung up on the materials in search for the $25 difference, you should probably be focussing more on the labor cost, country of origin and connected with both the fit and finish of the product. You can make up $25 in a hurry with just those three "items on the bill"...."

You know something?
There are guys (and gals) out here who damn well get "hung up on" and indeed "focus" on $25 every day of the week. This blade went from 404C to AUS-8 in the click of somebody's mouse "somewhere" today (not even acknowledged for pete's sake)...and I'm supposed to not worry about what the damn thing costs or even what in the hell it is made of.. because I'm (God forbid) seemingly asking to many damn questions of Spyderco?

I think it's pretty obvious that I'm going to get 'schooled' here no matter what the subject matter or situation; so thanks to those that have helped me in this search and even you, HoB for trying in your own way...but I'm outta here. :thumbdn:
 
Skeletool said:
You know something?
There are guys (and gals) out here who damn well get "hung up on" and indeed "focus" on $25 every day of the week.
Click to expand...
If you gonna quote me, quote me right. I did not say that you shouldn't get hung up on $25. I said, you shouldn't by looking at the materials alone....big difference.
Skeletool said:
This blade went from 404C to AUS-8 in the click of somebody's mouse "somewhere" today because I'm (God forbid) seemingly asking to many damn questions of Spyderco?
Click to expand...
You sure you would be able to tell the difference in practice? I have my doubts.
Skeletool said:
ay because I'm (God forbid) seemingly asking to many damn questions of Spyderco?
Click to expand...
Maybe it's in the how, not in the how many......:rolleyes:
 
Skeletool said:
...This blade went from 404C to AUS-8 in the click of somebody's mouse "somewhere" today (not even acknowledged for pete's sake)..
Click to expand...

Skeletool,
The change on our site was made by me. I had intended upon acknowledging it, but given that I'm home today, my priority shifted, my 2 year old needed me. For what it's worth, our website is handled primarily by myself, one other person at Spyderco (he's loading all the product and working on updating existing product) and we have a webmaster who is contracted from outside Spyderco. He's helping us make improvements, some you'll easily see, others you won't, at least not immediately.

For the delay, I'm sorry, but here's the reply I intended upon making this morning...

Skeletool said:
A great review and one that is much appreciated, yablanowitz.
If this tool has been around; it is curious to me that there are not more satisfied (or not) owners out there with an opinion on it. I would be using the blade on this as basically one of the few knives that I own....so I am a little cautious when more than one person doesn't look at 440C very 'highly' as either a good edge-holder or even a '21st century' alloy commonly used by leaders in the industry. I'm hoping that Spyderco simply missed the boat (several times) in the description of this tool; as there would be no reason to save $25 on a tool simply described as 'stainless'...or spend $25 more to receive a blade consisting of a much older alloy that couldn't even make the Byrd line to begin with (and which doesn't seem to be in wide use or favor on this forum).

$150 for a multitool today is a pretty good price and I would pay it if one knew what they were getting either by description or even consensus review. I think that I will sit out my first Spyderco purchase to either see if anybody else has ever bought one of these things or wait until something similiar comes along at perhaps even a bit more competitive price (price isn't an issue if you have the best tool out there; yet I want to see at the very least a correct 'picture' of the darn thing...before I buy it!). :)

By the way, I am not knocking Spyderco here and perceive them as most likely my 'go to' knife supplier by measure of their affordable Byrd line and maybe even this new "Tenacious" in the same alloy. I'm all over this movement to put decent knives in the hands of the average Joe (finally)....just a little cautious when introduced to two tools with the same basic name...from the same company. ;)
Click to expand...

Skeletool,
I've corrected our site. When we re-introduced the Spyderench the original listing on the site was made live mistakenly without the necessary edits. The image is accurate, it is the latest Spyderench made of AUS-8 in Taiwan.

440C was the original steel of choice for the byrd line. Here's a response from Sal from early on that explains the situation of changing the byrd line from 440C to 8Cr13MoV best (it was referring to the SS Cara Cara and Meadowlark)...

sal said:
I'll try to make some sense of it.

Hi JDEE. They didn't feel that hard to me either when I put them on the rods. We Rc'd them in-house and they were running 60/61. I know 440C is brittle at 61. These don't seem brittle. We're still getting feedback.

The steel in the byrds is 8Cr13MoV.

When we first began designing the byrd line and working with the makers, we asked the makers what was the best steel available in China. They said 440C. We requested 440C.

As is my anal retentive, obsessive-compulsive nature, I'm always testing. On the first run, the edge retension was quite good, lock strength was heavy duty range, lock reliability was excellent. Then I analyzed the steel in the first run. Chemistry didn't match 440C. "Something about Chinese 440C".

We communicated with the foundry. Their analysis matched ours. I said we cannot call this 440C in the USA if it is not the same chemistry as 440C in the USA. The name of the steel in China is 8Cr13MoV. .8 Carbon, 13 Chrome, less than 1. moly with vanadium.

It is a good steel and tests in a range with Aichi's AUS-8.

byrd models are made from and will be marked 8Cr13MoV.

It is interesting to note that 95% of all knives sold are sold to people that don't know one steel is different from another. Here on this forum we seem to have many that do. I'm impressed.

I don't think you will find a better quality $25-$30 knife.

sal
Click to expand...

As to the differences between the Spyderench and the byrdRench, other than the obvious (steel) ones...

The Spyderench has a diamond coated file which includes a concave, convex and flat sharpening surface. It has a small Philips head on one end and a hole starter on the other. The blade has the Spyderco Round Hole opener. The Spyderench is manufactured in Taiwan.

The byrdRench has a rat-tail file with a hole starter on one end. The blade has the byrd comet shaped hole opener. The byrdRench is manufactured in China.

We agree, to many people, $25.00 is a large enough difference to make a choice automatic for them. Both the Spyderench and the byrdRench have a place in the multi-tool market.

I think several of your questions about reviews (or lack there of) have been addressed by other members, so I’ll leave that question alone.

If we haven’t answered all of your questions, forgive us, it’s a busy time for us. Sal is preparing to head to Europe for Meets and IWA, I’m preparing for a couple of government shows. So we’re not always able to read or reply as thoroughly as we might like, but we do try our best. Feel free to email us at retailsales@spyderco.com or customerservice@spyderco.com as well as post here.

Kristi
 
Thanks for the follow-up, Kristi. We're all busy out here also and deserve just as much attention as any everyday forum member up here chiding us for exactly "how" questions are asked of Spyderco or whether we can truly "tell the difference" in the first place. Again, this was more of an opportunity to help Spyderco out while receiving some much needed info in return...yet it appears that i just don't fit in here (which is certainly no big deal on my end).

Sincere best wishes in regards to both Spyderco's success and to the membership as a whole.
 
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