SRBS - MRBS - IKBS...Smooth, Smoother, Smoothest. Daboia, Shirogorov, Thorburn

Honestly i think mrbs is a little more marketing than it is science. That isnt to say it doesnt have its benefits as it does but i dont think smoothness has anything to do with it despite post after post with people claiming it does in fact matter. The reason i say that is because when you increase the number of bearings you increase the amount of contact you have. More points of contact over a wider surface area usually equates to more friction. But in the case of bearing flipper with a multirow system you have about the same amount of bearings you would have in a knife with none caged ikbs. Only know instead of one row it is two. Some might say you have the same amount of bearing as well as the same surface area contact therefore the same amount of friction. Others would argue that since those two rows of bearings in a cage and separated now actually create more friction due to the doubling of rows and thus twice as much stuff that needs to get moving.

I think the real advantage to a mrbs system is reducing wear. You get a balance between the increased wear properties associated with more contact of a washer but the reduced friction of a bearing. And since the pressure put on the bearings is spread over a wider area you may have less risk of wearing the frame or liners. Still you have to ask which is better for wear? Two rows with extra space between the bearings or one row with no cage but each bearing right next to each other sharing the load? I really dont know.

What i do know though is that mrbs or srbs it really doesnt mattwr unless you have a properly tuned lockbar and detent. I have seen knives that would feel like lightning dipped in astroglide except for the fact they had a lockbar exuding so much force that it overshadowed any reduction in friction gained by the bearings and covered it up with excessive friction with the detent. Really at this point i can take or leave a multirow system. I think the most important factors in making a smooth flipper are detent, lockbar, blade finish and flipper style/placement and in that order. And then way at the bottom of the list the actual bearing material, lube and amont of rows last.
 
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PURPLEDC wrote: "Honestly i think mrbs is a little more marketing than it is science. That isnt to say it doesnt have its benefits as it does but i dont think smoothness has anything to do with it despite post after post with people claiming it does in fact matter."

PURPLEDC, I tend to agree with just about all your theories. I'd say that 3/4 of the Thorburns I own are SRBS and the last 1/4 are MRBS...and they are all equally incredibly smooth. If I were blindfolded I don't think I could tell you which was which based on how smoothly they opened or closed under their own weight. I think a lot of it is psychological. This is the same reason that I am very skeptical of the much higher priced (and I love their products, don't get me wrong) "Custom" Shirogorovs. Are those much higher prices really justified. Aside from the dimensions & weight being a little different (usually thicker handles than the mid techs) I believe the justifications for the substantially higher prices for the "customs" are primarily in the mind of the purchaser, placed there by clever marketing by the manufacturer AND added hype from the knife collecting community. When they show the MRBS "disk" with more tiny ball bearings inset into it, and the price of the knife is three or four times higher, I tend to laugh...in a very respectful way of course. I know we are paying for more human "hands-on time" on the knife, but the final product...3 times the price? Are you getting 3x the knife? I remain skeptical...espcially when you can get a (full custom made) THOURBURN (starting to sound like a broken record here, I know) at or LESS than the price of most mid tech, SRBS Shiros. Seems like someone has either overpriced...or UNDER-priced their product line. Bottom line, I love both makers. They both put out phenomenal product and THAT is really the bottom line IMHO. :cool:
 
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PURPLEDC wrote: "Honestly i think mrbs is a little more marketing than it is science. That isnt to say it doesnt have its benefits as it does but i dont think smoothness has anything to do with it despite post after post with people claiming it does in fact matter."

PURPLEDC, I tend to agree with just about all your theories. I'd say that 3/4 of the Thorburns I own are SRBS and the last 1/4 are MRBS...and they are all equally incredibly smooth. If I were blindfolded I don't think I could tell you which was which based on how smoothly they opened or closed under their own weight. I think a lot of it is psychological. This is the same reason that I am very skeptical of the much higher priced (and I love their products, don't get me wrong) "Custom" Shirogorovs. Are those much higher prices really justified. Aside from the dimensions & weight being a little different (usually thicker handles than the mid techs) I believe the justifications for the substantially higher prices for the "customs" are primarily in the mind of the purchaser, placed there by clever marketing by the manufacturer AND added hype from the knife collecting community. When they show the MRBS "disk" with more tiny ball bearings inset into it, and the price of the knife is three or four times higher, I tend to laugh...in a very respectful way of course. I know we are paying for more human "hands-on time" on the knife, but the final product...3 times the price? Are you getting 3x the knife? I remain skeptical...espcially when you can get a (full custom made) THOURBURN (starting to sound like a broken record here, I know) at or LESS than the price of most mid tech, SRBS Shiros. Seems like someone has either overpriced...or UNDER-priced their product line. Bottom line, I love both makers. They both put out phenomenal product and THAT is really the bottom line IMHO. :cool:


Honestly I cant speak to shiros. I simply dont have enough experience with them. IMHO every single one of them is overpriced. Any time a production knife costs more than most customs I tend to instantly lose interest. Those Thorburns? I am envious. I wanted one so bad but I discovered them right when his stuff blew up on youtube and it was unable to get on his list, and three other makers from africa were the same no go. In the end who really knows if MRBS is placebo or actually has merit. What I do know? bearings arent required period for smooth action. But they make me happy. And isnt that what its all about? Even if there is no justification for MRBS. If it puts a smile on your face its money well spent.
 
I don't have any experience with MRBS yet, but my Daboia and my John Arnold are probably my two smoothest BB knives I own.

Really really itching to try the "A Squared" collabs with two row IKBS. I've heard some of the bigger ones have 90 BBs in them :eek:
 
the smoothest knives i ever saw was reate horizon, helix, proelia, and, maybe some of shirogorov f3 with bearings, i own one and am not lucky with the lock pressure, it is too much, maybe bad oil. one of my hinderers xm18 was good enough too. Mutant's lock's cut-off is thick, so it is stronger lock so it makes more pressure on blade, but HELL I REALLY LIKE THIS THING in THIS knife while opening and closing repeatedly!!!!
 
I fully agree with your thoughts.

Andre Thorburn does amazing work and the collaboration between him and Andre van Heerden produces some stunning pieces.

This is the A3 taken apart:

10358237_324552424359408_1387312226_n_zps7e831cf6.  jpg


Andre T experimented with caged bearings back in 2011 but has since gone away from it. Trust me when I say his caged system was already VERY smooth and the knife pictured here is one I have handled on numerous occasions as I know the person who won it.

KGSAshow201116Medium.jpg


KGSAshow201115Medium.jpg


In this video you can see one of Andre's single row IKBS folders at 2:57. Pretty much just as smooth as multirow. All and all, the attention to detail Andre puts into his knives is really what puts his work apart from others. Andre Thorburn and Andre van Heerden are also the IKBS approvers in South Africa.

[video=youtube;enLR03gbQWc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enLR03gbQWc[/video]
 
I fully agree with your thoughts.

Andre Thorburn does amazing work and the collaboration between him and Andre van Heerden produces some stunning pieces.

This is the A3 taken apart:

10358237_324552424359408_1387312226_n_zps7e831cf6.  jpg


Andre T experimented with caged bearings back in 2011 but has since gone away from it. Trust me when I say his caged system was already VERY smooth and the knife pictured here is one I have handled on numerous occasions as I know the person who won it.

KGSAshow201116Medium.jpg


KGSAshow201115Medium.jpg


In this video you can see one of Andre's single row IKBS folders at 2:57. Pretty much just as smooth as multirow. All and all, the attention to detail Andre puts into his knives is really what puts his work apart from others. Andre Thorburn and Andre van Heerden are also the IKBS approvers in South Africa.

[video=youtube;enLR03gbQWc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enLR03gbQWc[/video]

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**marthinus**, I loved seeing all your YT videos shot at Andre's workshop in South Africa! What a glimpse into the working laboratory (if you will) of a true master. I have one of two made, a model 53 XL Tanto MRBS and WOW, it is incredible. Was made for NYCKS 2014. I am so fortunate to have ended up with it. The Tanto ground, hand rubbed satin blade, MRBS and the entire knife, from its anodized and engraved bolsters to its LSCF scales to filed spine work, it's beautifully anodized hi-polished ti liners, perfect detent & custom pivot...all is perfection and works strongly, smoothly and flawlessly together...at 10.5 inches total length! It's a stunner. Great to talk with you.
 
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**marthinus**, I loved seeing all your YT videos shot at Andre's workshop in South Africa! What a glimpse into the working laboratory (if you will) of a true master. I have one of two made, a model 53 XL Tanto MRBS and WOW, it is incredible. Was made for NYCKS 2014. I am so fortunate to have ended up with it. The Tanto ground, hand rubbed satin blade, MRBS and the entire knife, from its anodized and engraved bolsters to its LSCF scales to filed spine work, it's beautifully anodized hi-polished ti liners, perfect detent & custom pivot...all is perfection and works strongly, smoothly and flawlessly together...at 10.5 inches total length! It's a stunner. Great to talk with you.

I only saw the raw product of that monster for the NYCKS 2014 but I can believe you when you say it is a great piece. Congrats on the score and by the sound of it, quite a SA makers collection :thumbup: Others that are incorporating and learning from Andre Thorburn and Andre van Heerden are John Arnold and Herucus Blomerus.

Thanks for the kind words on my videos.
 
Agree on the smoothness of handling. *RBS is always better than washer.

The difference happens when running against destructive force from the size, there was a guy did a stress test by press force on to pivot.

Force to cause destruction is DRRBS > SRRBS > MRBS. But I do not think most user will use the knife to that extent (~70kg side pressure).

Honestly i think mrbs is a little more marketing than it is science. That isnt to say it doesnt have its benefits as it does but i dont think smoothness has anything to do with it despite post after post with people claiming it does in fact matter. The reason i say that is because when you increase the number of bearings you increase the amount of contact you have. More points of contact over a wider surface area usually equates to more friction. But in the case of bearing flipper with a multirow system you have about the same amount of bearings you would have in a knife with none caged ikbs. Only know instead of one row it is two. Some might say you have the same amount of bearing as well as the same surface area contact therefore the same amount of friction. Others would argue that since those two rows of bearings in a cage and separated now actually create more friction due to the doubling of rows and thus twice as much stuff that needs to get moving.

I think the real advantage to a mrbs system is reducing wear. You get a balance between the increased wear properties associated with more contact of a washer but the reduced friction of a bearing. And since the pressure put on the bearings is spread over a wider area you may have less risk of wearing the frame or liners. Still you have to ask which is better for wear? Two rows with extra space between the bearings or one row with no cage but each bearing right next to each other sharing the load? I really dont know.

What i do know though is that mrbs or srbs it really doesnt mattwr unless you have a properly tuned lockbar and detent. I have seen knives that would feel like lightning dipped in astroglide except for the fact they had a lockbar exuding so much force that it overshadowed any reduction in friction gained by the bearings and covered it up with excessive friction with the detent. Really at this point i can take or leave a multirow system. I think the most important factors in making a smooth flipper are detent, lockbar, blade finish and flipper style/placement and in that order. And then way at the bottom of the list the actual bearing material, lube and amont of rows last.
 
Thorburns and Shirogorovs are very smooth, sure, but so are Grimsmos, and they use captive bearings. I personally prefer captive bearings than trying to find loose balls after they spill out.

I've also had my thumb sliced by free dropping blades often enough that I've learned to appreciate a wee bit of friction ;)
 
Detent has more to do with action than the bearings in the pivot but it's a combination of several factors tbo.

More pivot bearing rows help distribute the load of the knife around the detent. So more rows are better for larger or heavier blades. But also changes how lighter/smaller blades feel due to the added support. For example the shiro Neon.

If lockbar tension is too weak or strong that can affect action too. But the main point of friction in action is the detent while the rest of the knife design around that also effects its properties.
 
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