Stabalize mammoth ivory

Better yet, try asking in Knifemaking subforum, you'll get better response there then in General Discussion.
 
Ivory is stabilized with cyanoacrylic resins. The resins used to do wood are different.

The CA is a very thin formula that is drawn into the ivory under vacuum. It is cured with catalysts sometimes, and allowed to polymerize on its own other times.

You can stabilize scales that have been pre-shaped to the 220 grit stage by flooding them repeatedly with thin CA from a knife supply catalog, or from a woodworking supplier. After the CA has completely cured, sand the ivory to its final finish.

On mammoth that has a lot of cracks and splits, I first stabilize the material with thin CA. This may take a few weeks of sealing until no more will absorb. After the mammoth has cured, I fill the voids and splits with dyed epoxy resin.Sometimes I use a matching color, and other times I use a contrasting or darker color. This can make a piece of mammoth core that would be useless into a very interesting handle. Think of the handles made from filling cactus wood with resin...similar look.
 
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Ivory is stabilized with cyanoacrylic resins. The resins used to do wood are different.

The CA is a very thin formula that is drawn into the ivory under vacuum. It is cured with catalysts sometimes, and allowed to polymerize on its own other times.

You can stabilize scales that have been pre-shaped to the 220 grit stage by flooding them repeatedly with thin CA from a knife supply catalog, or from a woodworking supplier. After the CA has completely cured, sand the ivory to its final finish.

On mammoth that has a lot of cracks and splits, I first stabilize the material with thin CA. This may take a few weeks of sealing until no more will absorb. After the mammoth has cured, I fill the voids and splits with dyed epoxy resin.Sometimes I use a matching color, and other times I use a contrasting or darker color. This can make a piece of mammoth core that would be useless into a very interesting handle. Think or the handles made from filling cactus wood with resin...similar look.
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Do you think this process also can be done only with dyed water epoxy which is a very thin resin and has a very long curing time and let it soak into the tusk by vacumizing? If so, it would be a much more easier process. The only issue is that the dyed epoxy maybe will color the ivory and give it a different color than ivory white..
 
What exact resin are you calling "dyed water epoxy"? If it is a curing resin, then it should work.

BTW, this is a ten year old thread.
 
I have never used water based resins for stabilizing. Ben at Greenberg woods would be the guy to comment on its use for stabilizing.

That said, try it out and see how it works. If you need some scrap mammoth to test it on, I can send you some. Using it dyed would tell you how well it penetrates.
 
Eriksen said:
Yes I know it´s an old thread and water epoxy didn´t exist at that time. Water epoxy is a very thin water based resin and by adding color it´s dyed.
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It doesnt work. This is why the differences between an epocy or phenolic resin vs the acrylic monomers in stabilizing resin are important. So many people think they can soak wood in epoxy and make super stabilized wood.

The resin has to flow through the pores of the wood. In commercial stabilizing, this is very easy because the presence of solvent means the entire resin monomer is disolved and acts as a liquid, being wicked through the pores by capilary action before the heat cures the resin in place.

Epoxy is a very thick, viscous liquid that would cure rapidly in an ultra thin pore, stopping up the pores and preventing anything but the most minor uptake. Thats why epoxy cured or phenolic products like micarta or pakkawood are always made in layers, because a full layer of resin can be applied sperating each layer of medium.
 
I just had a look through the MSDS for the water pour resin, its interesting, but nothing wildly new. The resin is a very typical epoxy resin of mostly mid length phenol rings and a mix of polymer chains with epoxides, and the hardener has a bunch of OH groups which would allow for a lot of cross linking and solidifying the polymer into resin. It seems it may be more heat stable which allows for thicker pours, but the same limiting effects of curing in the poor, very limited flow and an inability to be pulled through pores by capillary action means it can not be used for any sort of stabilizing.
 
By the way, my comments were in reference to wood. I am not knowledgeable about the pore structure or adsorption properties of mammoth tooth or ivory, my expertise is wood. I know mammoth is often stabilized in the same way.
 
Greenberg Woods said:
It doesnt work. This is why the differences between an epocy or phenolic resin vs the acrylic monomers in stabilizing resin are important. So many people think they can soak wood in epoxy and make super stabilized wood.

The resin has to flow through the pores of the wood. In commercial stabilizing, this is very easy because the presence of solvent means the entire resin monomer is disolved and acts as a liquid, being wicked through the pores by capilary action before the heat cures the resin in place.

Epoxy is a very thick, viscous liquid that would cure rapidly in an ultra thin pore, stopping up the pores and preventing anything but the most minor uptake. Thats why epoxy cured or phenolic products like micarta or pakkawood are always made in layers, because a full layer of resin can be applied sperating each layer of medium.
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I thought that the mammoth is hard enough and did not require to be soaked with resin but the gaps need to be filled and glued. If that isn´t right and I need a super glue in order to soak the whole thing, which of these will be the best choice and for how long time does it need to be under vacuum?
 
I am the wrong person to ask that question. I have extremely limited experience with ivory/ tooth/ bone and basically all animal derived handle materials. I have a background in chemistry, and nearing a decade of expereince with wood for knife handles, stabilizing, and how woods react to it.

Questions about its strength should be aimed elsewhere
 
Mammoth is much like wood. It comes in many hardnesses and densities, and a variety of states of decay. Stabilization for walnut burl may be quite different from a piece of punky spalted maple or a slab of balsa soft Buckeye burl.

The mammoth ivory for knives most of us are familiar with is similar to elephant tusk ivory (enamel) and is dense and nearly impervious to absorption of any resin. It is hard to dye because it is so dense. It does not need stabilization, but may have cracks on the surface or in the material that need to be filled. Thin to thick CA works here.

Then you have the opposite end of the spectrum with tusks hath have been leeched in water (dredged tusks from the North Sea are common and cheap). They are usually quite chalky and punky. These have to be stabilized to be usable. Thin CA is the best resin for the job.

Also, there is the core material, which was more porous to start with. It is often chalky and/or soft. Thin CA works best here.

Finally, you have weathered tusk pieces which are splitting along the growth rings and cracked apart in places. They look like delaminating plywood. These can be used sometimes if you first harden/stabilize the material with a thin CA and then fill the spaces with a thicker and hard resin (usually dyed to contrast).
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Mammoth is much like wood. It comes in many hardnesses and densities, and a variety of states of decay. Stabilization for walnut burl may be quite different from a piece of punky spalted maple or a slab of balsa soft Buckeye burl.

The mammoth ivory for knives most of us are familiar with is similar to elephant tusk ivory (enamel) and is dense and nearly impervious to absorption of any resin. It is hard to dye because it is so dense. It does not need stabilization, but may have cracks on the surface or in the material that need to be filled. Thin to thick CA works here.

Then you have the opposite end of the spectrum with tusks hath have been leeched in water (dredged tusks from the North Sea are common and cheap). They are usually quite chalky and punky. These have to be stabilized to be usable. Thin CA is the best resin for the job.

Also, there is the core material, which was more porous to start with. It is often chalky and/or soft. Thin CA works best here.

Finally, you have weathered tusk pieces which are splitting along the growth rings and cracked apart in places. They look like delaminating plywood. These can be used sometimes if you first harden/stabilize the material with a thin CA and then fill the spaces with a thicker and hard resin (usually dyed to contrast).
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Do you know about any affordable thin CA which can be used for this purpose, and will it be advisable to soak the pieces of mammoth in this glue in the same way as with cactus juice and get it under vacuum, or will the CA harden under the process?
 
Most suppliers sell CA in pints (and even quarts, and gallons). It is surprisingly cheap in bulk. I used to get it from R.W.Wilson for around $35 a pint.
Kept closed up and cold it lasts a long time.

To flood stabilize ivory, I put the piece in a disposable small plastic container and pour some resin over the piece, maybe 1/2 an ounce. Turn the piece with chopsticks often and tilt the tub to get the piece fully wet. You may have to do this for a good while. Set the tub down with the bottom tilted so the resin runs to one side and put the ivory on that side so it sits in the excess as much as possible. Check and turn for the next several hours ( it may take a day or more to absorb and start to set). Once it has soaked in, or the resin is getting thick and geled, take the ivory out and set on a sheet of saran wrap. I don't like using accelerator to speed the cure ... so i just leave it out to harden, which can take a day or so depending on the humidity (water vapor is the catalyst for the resins polymerization). You may have to do some pieces several times to soak in and fill all the small cracks. From there I use medium and thick CA to fill larger cracks, and thin epoxy with dye to fill large cracks and voids.Use the hardest setting epoxy you can get. West System and System-Three are both good epoxy sources. I never checked, but they may sell CA in bulk.

Here is another trick:
If you have a round tusk section that need the delaminations and cracks sealed, try this - Wrap the piece from end to end tightly with packing plastic (the stuff on a big roll with a handle that you stretch to close up boxes and furniture). Then wrap the sides trightly. Once done, use a sharp blade to cut the plastic off one end. Put a wrap of duct tape around the side at that end so it makes a 1/2" rim above the end surface. Set the piece in a disposable plastic container just in case some of the CA leaks out.
Now you can pour CA on the end and let it soak down the tusk section. Add some more a couple days later, and keep adding it every day or so until it won't soak down any more.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
To flood stabilize ivory, I put the piece in a disposable small plastic container and pour some resin over the piece, maybe 1/2 an ounce. Turn the piece with chopsticks often and tilt the tub to get the piece fully wet. You may have to do this for a good while. Set the tub down with the bottom tilted so the resin runs to one side and put the ivory on that side so it sits in the excess as much as possible. Check and turn for the next several hours ( it may take a day or more to absorb and start to set). Once it has soaked in, or the resin is getting thick and geled, take the ivory out and set on a sheet of saran wrap.
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OK!
I understand but is this the only way to do it, or can I also do this in a vacuum chamber in order to have the glue penetrating faster? And do you think it can be cured faster after this process by warming it up in a stove with a glass of water inside which will create hot vapor?
 
Eriksen said:
OK!
I understand but is this the only way to do it, or can I also do this in a vacuum chamber in order to have the glue penetrating faster? And do you think it can be cured faster after this process by warming it up in a stove with a glass of water inside which will create hot vapor?
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I'm going to say, I think you have the wrong mindset.

Speed is not the goal. When you are working with any fine material, but especially fine organic materials slow is always preferred.

Fine woods should not be dried rapidly in the oven or the toaster or in the microwave or in the sun, but rather slowly and carefully.

Ivory and tooth should be worked slowly, to avoid heat buildup and to prevent swarf buildup that may deflect a cut or cause a crack

They should both be babied as to avoid rapid changes in temperature or humidity that would induce cracking.

If you are so worried about speed that you are considering curing super glue in the oven over a piece of ivory, I recommend starting with some G-10 or other synthetic material that is vastly more forgiving.
 
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