Steel inserts on framelocks

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JTR357

JTR357

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I've been noticing there are a quite a bit more production Ti framelocks lately and I like that,but what gives with the steel inserts?
Chris Reeve invented the RIL(Ti framelock) and has been making them all these years without them.Lot's of other custom makers don't use them either.
I like framelocks primarily for the simplicity of the design.Two slabs of Ti & a blade (plus fittings of course).They're easy to disassemble,clean & reassemble.Not many small parts.
The past couple of production knives I've bought had the inserts & I just don't likem'.I don't like the way they feel.I wish I wasn't so darn picky when it comes to knives.

Why are production companies using the steel insert on their Ti framelocks?Is it more cost effective than HTing or carbadizing(sp?) the lockface?

What do you think of them?
 
i heard it is to prevent sticky lock , another says it is due to how soft titanium lockface is compared to steel inserts. I never tried framelocks with the steel insert, though. but my Techno ... well a bit sticky but that is not my issue.
 
Easier to do warranty work is my guess. If a knife with a steel insert goes in for lock rock or blade play, the insert can just be replaced instead of the whole frame. Hell, a company could send you the insert to do it yourself.

That and the idea is that steel on steel wears better than ti on steel I'm guessing are the main factors. Maybe I'm weird, but I don't mind the inserts, as long as they're done well and not sticky.
 
I think they do it because people complain about sticky locks and premature wear, i think that the lock being sticky is actually a plus as it is less likely to fail.
 
I think the number one reason is so manufacturers don't have to deal with people complaining about two things. One; lock stick caused by the the titanium galling. Two; there's less chance of lock deformation.

I've also heard people talk about being able to replace the insert to improve lock up. The only probplem I see is the fact that some inserts on top of having one or two screws holing it in place have a pressure fitted pin making it alsmot impossible to remove.

This is speculation, but I would guess the reason Chris Reeves doesn't use lock bar inserts is because of the precision with which they are manufactured. What I mean by this is the lock face geometry plays a roll in whether or not it will stick. I can't elaborate on the physics behind this...hard subject to find information on (or at least I haven't looked hard enough haha).

Figured I'd throw my 2 cents in the pile. :)

~Kirby

P.S
I forgot to mention Zero Tolorance has also integrated a lock over travel into some of there inserts, it's a nice feature in my opinion.
 
EBHM4 said:
Easier to do warranty work is my guess. If a knife with a steel insert goes in for lock rock or blade play, the insert can just be replaced instead of the whole frame. Hell, a company could send you the insert to do it yourself.

That and the idea is that steel on steel wears better than ti on steel I'm guessing are the main factors. Maybe I'm weird, but I don't mind the inserts, as long as they're done well and not sticky.
Click to expand...

That's a good point I hadn't considered.Thanks
 
I like the fact that they are replaceable.
I have a Ti Millie and a Socom Delta that feel great when closing the knife, somewhat more consistent and less gritty than my ZT-0560 Or even to a smaller degree, my Sebenza. That being said, I'm with you, I like the framelock I love to tinker with them.
I would guess that it would cost more to do the insert, but that's just my 2 cents.
Cheers
 
9blades said:
P.S
I forgot to mention Zero Tolorance has also integrated a lock over travel into some of there inserts, it's a nice feature in my opinion.
Click to expand...
The Spyderco Tuff also has this feature. I'm right there with you, I think it's nifty as hell.
 
Chris Reeve Changed the way he does framelocks for his newer models, like the Umnumzann and the Sebenza 25, there is a ceramic ball on he lockbar face that interfaces with the blade tang, so it's a very similar idea to a steel insert, to not have the TI rubbing against the steel blade. Obviously, this is very different than a steel lockbar insert, but even the inventor and according to many master of the Framelock is moving away from the original design.
 
JTR357 said:
...
Why are production companies using the steel insert on their Ti framelocks?Is it more cost effective than HTing or carbadizing(sp?) the lockface?

What do you think of them?
Click to expand...

I'm no expert, but I would guess that production companies consider it a more effective alternative to other solutions to a galling problem of unlike metals. Again I would guess that considering cost effectiveness goes into decision to use the insert. I think it is a more modern solution to an old problem.
 
CRK imbeds a ceramic ball into the end off the lockbar to interface with the blade tang on the Sebenza 25 and Umnumzaan.
 
I don't like it from a purely aesthetic point of view.Its been the deciding factor in quite a few knives that I had intended on buying, the Domino is one.I mean the Southard doesn't have one does it?
 
ThievesLikeUs said:
I don't like it from a purely aesthetic point of view.Its been the deciding factor in quite a few knives that I had intended on buying, the Domino is one.I mean the Southard doesn't have one does it?
Click to expand...

The Southard does not have an insert.
 
ThievesLikeUs said:
I don't like it from a purely aesthetic point of view.Its been the deciding factor in quite a few knives that I had intended on buying, the Domino is one.I mean the Southard doesn't have one does it?
Click to expand...

I really like it on the Domino, it doubles as an over travel stop and it's really not blatantly obvious. I can barely tell it's even there, except for the nice subtle jimping on it.
 
I've seen the Ti lock face get peened pretty bad (deformation galore) on many production, midtech and a couple customs. The insert is a good thing really. What I am guessing is that with different grades of Ti available, some manufacturers may have opted for a lower cost grade, or used a different grade when they one they really needed was not available. Heat treating the lockface should prevent deformation for hundreds and thousands of cycles. I'm not sure about the carbidizing/carburizing though. Te life of the locking slab should never be an after thought to makers though, it's almost like reverse engineering a safety mechanism into it.
 
Are there many examples of liner locks failing inside of a framelock? Curious as ive been eyeballing a few.

I do not baton or spinewack any of my knives if wondering, mostly box cuts and maybe paper slicing out of boredom.
 
I think that manufacturers have them on some knives just to eliminate complaints from users who feel that the titanium-on-steel galling is a problem. On harder steels like the CPM-M4 Military, there might be accelerated wear on the titanium face so I can see why Spyderco might see it as necessary, and just produce the Ti Military framelocks with an insert for models moving forward, even for ones with the S30V blades. I haven't had any problems with lockface wear on any of my Ti framelocks that have just been carbidized or carburized on knives having 154CM (Emerson), CPM-D2 (Kershaw, Horton), S30V (Spyderco, CRK), and even the super-hard REX121 (Farid, although I haven't used it really hard but have cut with it a lot). I don't think the inserts are necessary, but I don't mind the feature either. A little more peace of mind doesn't hurt.
 
One of the things I love about this place is there's never any shortage of opinions & explanations.I appreciate it. :)

I suppose I'll get used to it or I'll have to move onto other types of locks.It looks like it's here to stay.I didn't know about the ceramic lockface on the CRKs.Thanks for the info.
 
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