Steel with the finest grain?

[Tin.Man]

Remember reading a while back about how 52100 and Aebl had some of the finest grain size. It being a good decade I️ believe later has anyone found any steels of a similar grain size? Heard elmax touted as very fine grained, same with pretty much all of the 3rd gen steels from bohler-uddeholm and carpenter.

More just curious really. Appreciate the help

 

[Lapedog]

I have heard that Sandvik steels like 12c27 are particularly fine grained. Not sure what steel is the finest though.

 

[mete]

Proper HT will give smaller grain but certain alloying elements help too. Elements like small amounts I of vanadium help reduce grain growth.
Don't confuse small grains with small carbides , two different things !

 

[Willie71]

Hitachi White, aeb-l, 1095, W1/W2, and 52100 are all renowned for their fine grain when properly heat treated. I think 15n20 could probably be added to the list based on how many people have been able to make very keen, stable edges.

 

[Larrin]

Remember reading a while back about how 52100 and Aebl had some of the finest grain size. It being a good decade I️ believe later has anyone found any steels of a similar grain size? Heard elmax touted as very fine grained, same with pretty much all of the 3rd gen steels from bohler-uddeholm and carpenter.

More just curious really. Appreciate the help

You should do some reading about what grains and grain size refers to and what carbides are. Powder metallurgy is primarily about keeping carbides small.

 

[Tin.Man]

Larrin I’ve read quite a bit about carbide size. I️ understand how grain refinement works. It was more of a looking for opinions or interesting tid bits regarding the actually grain size of the steel after reading some of your posts in Aebl as well as voerhoven(sp?) and some talks with Phil Wilson and ankerson here on bf.

Appreciate all the stuff so far. I’ve made Knives out of o1 a2 elmax 1084 aebl and s7 a11 m390. Ive come to appreciate how some of the 3rd gen pm steels grind pre and post ht as well as how fine the dust is.

I’m interested in something tougher than aebl and elmax but similarly fine grained I️ suppose.

 

[Willie71]

O1, 1084, hitachi blue, and many others are all close to the steels listed above.

 

[Willie71]

I’m interested in something tougher than aebl and elmax but similarly fine grained I️ suppose.

Aeb-l is pretty tough. 15n20 might edge it out. None of the hypereuctoid steels are known for their toughness, just their toughness at high hardness.

Maybe z-wear or 3V is what you are looking for?

 

[Hengelo_77]

Niolox (sb1 / 1.4153.03) gives a very fine grain. Supposetly because of a small amount of niobium (columbium) in it.

 

[Larrin]

If you are looking for a steel with good hardness, edge stability, and toughness, it would be tough to do better than AEB-L. You can trade a little hardness and wear resistance for a small increase in toughness by going to 12C27 or 12C27M. The carbide size and volume is the main limiting factor for toughness and edge stability with knife steels generally, not grain size. I say the limiting factor because the grain size could be blown out through bad heat treating. High wear resistance with relatively low toughness is available in the PM grades like Elmax, S30V, and CPM-154. There aren’t many in between stainless choices, the closest would be Niolox or 19C27. If stain resistance is not a requirement there are many other choices, of course.

 

[mete]

Columbium [Niobium ] goes throughout the grain while Vanadium in smaller amounts stays in the grain boundary. Vanadium in the boundaries reduces grain boundary movement therefore slows grain growth. Many seem to think that Vanadium somehow shrinks the grains , not so !
In large carbides fractures usually go from carbide to carbide . With the powder steels fractures mostly go through the matrix not hitting the carbides . So the powder steels are inherently tougher. Combined with proper HT powder steels win the contest.

 

[Tin.Man]

Thanks for all the help so far gents! Larrin I️ should have explained better, not looking for a stainless steel so much as a steel that grinds and cuts like aebl and 52100 but increased toughness. Learning new stuff everyday!

 

[Geoff Flato]

A2?

 

[butcher_block]

im a fan of XHP but im not sure where it lands with aebl and say cpm154 i run mine at 63 RC

 

[DevinT]

I’m trying to figure out what exactly you’re after here.

Do you want greater keenness or greater toughness or more wear resistance with equal toughness?

Within a single grade, finer grain = highest toughness, keenness, and wear resistance. Among multiple grades, if any two grades have the same size grain and carbide, that doesn't mean that they will have the same toughness, keenness or wear resistance.

Toughness is affected by hardness, grain size, alloy content, carbide size and volume.

Keenness is affected by grain size, carbide size and somewhat by hardness.

Wear resistance is affected by grain size, carbide type and volume of carbide and sometimes alloy content.

In general, grades designed for greater wear resistance will sacrifice some toughness and grades designed for greater toughness will have less wear resistance.

If you are looking for a steel with a good balance if properties, I like A2, and PD1, along with aeb-l and 52100. Vanadis 4 extra looks good also.

Steels like elmax and xhp are designed for wear resistance and medium sized carbides. They will not be the toughest or the keenest of all grades but make great knives.

Hoss

 

[Willie71]

There are a number of steels that are very similar to PD1, and I agree with Devin that they are excellent performing steels. I haven’t used PD1, but have used z-wear and cru-wear and both have far exceeded my expectations.

https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata-bladesteelC-SpecWear.htm

 

[butcher_block]

PD1 is greata stuff and i have a 13 inch blade camp knife at rc63 and its holding up just fine (was shocked at how hard it got comparred to 3v)

 

[Tin.Man]

DevinT your amazing man! That’s exactly what I️ was looking for. Idk i always associated 52100 and aebl and elmax astonishing performance with them being what i felt was a finer grain. Obviously compared to my little use of 1095 and o1 at the time.

After tinkering and hobby making a few Knives I’ve come to appreciate more steels but always had the finer grain albeit carbide or actual grain of the steel from grain refinement stuck in the back of my head.

I’m pretty much looking for a steel tougher than cpm m4 with better wear resistance than say a2. 4v? Vanadis 4e? Cts-pd1?

Thank you for all the posts so far guys. Wish explaining via text was easier.

 

[Willie71]

DevinT your amazing man! That’s exactly what I️ was looking for. Idk i always associated 52100 and aebl and elmax astonishing performance with them being what i felt was a finer grain. Obviously compared to my little use of 1095 and o1 at the time.

After tinkering and hobby making a few Knives I’ve come to appreciate more steels but always had the finer grain albeit carbide or actual grain of the steel from grain refinement stuck in the back of my head.

I’m pretty much looking for a steel tougher than cpm m4 with better wear resistance than say a2. 4v? Vanadis 4e? Cts-pd1?

Thank you for all the posts so far guys. Wish explaining via text was easier.

PD1, z-wear, cru-wear, spectrumwear, vandis4e are all quite similar and any of them should meet your needs. Look under x-wear at AKS for his selection of these steels.

 

[Geoff Flato]

Another suggestion although possibly not where you're wanting to go. Cpm154. Very tough as far as stainless goes, and it holds an edge better than pretty well anything without vanadium. At rc61 or so it cuts very well, yet is still something you can beat on. I've been moving towards using it for nearly everything.