stick fighting/doble stick fighting

Joined
Nov 28, 1999
Messages
235
how many of you have seen instruction on how to fight with double sticks?

i never have except for a little by the presas family. i know a couple of black belters, but they didnt learn much outside a few combinations.

most people just teach sinawali and double stick disarming, but no strategy and deep fighting method like with single sticks or knife.

it also looks like excpet for doce pares i only see defense with single sticks, like he hits me here, i do this then do that...
what about attacking methods?
 
Everything we do is geared toward fighting, and our art has been adapted accordingly.

At least as important as strategy is POWER, something I was focusing on last night in fact. If you can't hit with power (I'm talking BONE CRUSHING power), then being in the right place, at the right time, with the right combination isn't going to help you very much ... been there, done that
frown.gif


Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."




[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 09 December 1999).]
 
I have seen doble baston combat strategies in both the Inosanto Kali Method and Lameco Eskrima. The disarms and sinawali drills that you refer to are generally basic techniques that are taught to most beginner and intermediate level students.

The simple block-counter drills in single stick practice are also phase one, entry level contra y contra drills, designed to develop flow in the beginning practitioner. Once that is established, mistiming, angling, multiple strikes, counters, and other offensive strategies are taught and trained.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
Both Pekiti Tirsia and Tirada Tirsia have double sticks- Sinawali and the more advanced Doblete. This incluses concepts, techniques, footwork, strategy etc.

Jason Yang
 
Rene Latosa's Figure 8 Theory and Dos Manos tapes have some concepts and drills on double stickfighting.
 
you might be taking it too literally. double weapons is just that. If you use a single weapon without he second one, your hand you really missed the point. At no time are you doing SINGLE weapon except as usage. The conceptual motion & principle is always double "weapon"..Weaving drills- conceptual motion drills- are to educate and allow you a "zone" to understand the rotation in space of two independent motions that you translate and apply- thats conceptual usage becoming application and translation.
In the USA I have not seen yet any Filipino art that does't use double weapon. If you mean to narrow it down to actual usage-application "why no double stick this, why no double sword that.."yes.. you might seem to find a gap in the training. Look between the lines. We all teach double weapons.Pick a style.Pick a type of filipino art or instructor that appeals to you personally.Color outside the lines!
You need to learn to apply what you percieve as single as double...if it applies right, it apples left, then it applies at the same time , or it follows....
happy training.
 
Well put, Bram!

Even single weapon is double weapon training because if you put a weapon into your live hand, you'll find that any seguidas, intercepts or weaving that is done with the original weapon hand are also attacks.

This is quite apparent in Espada y daga. The knife goes through motions similar to the live hand in single stick or kris/sword. You can also attack with you live hand of course.

Jason
 
Greetings to all:

Reviewing the posts made by our brothers re using double stick or knife as a substitute, I can comment that it is effective if you know the art.

As others said, some were part of training and it is up to the practitioner what he wants to adapt.

Thekuntawman, have you not seen a real Filipino expert in holding two blades in real fight. Those blades are short but it can be combined to those who has skilled. I am not that expert in that art so I cannot comment further but I've seen in real life.

For your info. Arnis is not just plane rattan or any cylindrical object. The actual martials arts in that essence is Bladed weapon a bolo. But for the sake of practicing we use a stick.

If we are practicing in Pistol shooting, shall we use an actual human being as target, NO! sir. We use props an simulation, although we use actual bullets. The Presas brothers can use a a true bladed weapon in a fast sparring with themselves because they are expert in that art. So, we cannot discount the effectiveness of the use of double stick or double weapon.

Like your style in Kuntao martial arts, I have doubts if you have an actually different and distinct kinds or foundation of the Five fundamentals of blockings like in Karate, or the several kicks being used by a martial arts man. Or it may just be the same thing that you are playing Karate or Tae Kwon Do, but only different name called Kuntao.

Filipino martial arts emerge from different locality. Please note that even the kinds of bolo or bladed weapon has different kinds in shape and purpose in every locality for their interpretation as how effective the blade will be implanted once it is being delivered. In the north, non use a rattan in Arnis, they use the Anahaw tree as a material formed with a double edge blade. See! this kind of stick in their arnis is too dangerous to practice with.

The long and short stick is also a substitute if we have a long bladed weapon and holding a short knife. Both can be applied if we have the training on it.

In karate also, even though how many trainings you have in Karate Clubs if you did not train yourself to harden your mind and heart in fighting and has not been in actual fight, still someone has a doubt as to how applicable the things we have learned.

Thanks.



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 11 December 1999).]
 
many people missed what Bruce Lee meant about the classical mess. not that martial arts themselves don't work,,but that the practitioner must go beyond the actual "this is" to the this might be, then to this becomes...
keeping that in mind. if you change size of the double weapons the usage changes within the context of conceptual usage for now RANGES come into effect. At same length, range is important but its a constant, as the tools vary in size ones double usage must now take into account the differening ranges that each tool needs to be combat effective. If this is practiced in "single weapon", such as stick and empty hand, one truly begins to understand that combative ranges are constantly changing in GROSS as well as in the MINUTE within themselves.
Then the whole double weapon becomes a three dimension play ground..
If you do Kuntao I assume that you move in 3-d not 2-d pattern..
Ifno pone has taught you double usage you can check out MANY tapes on the subject..all contain some piece of the truth...
Have a great day!
 
i have read everybody post, but ithink everyone missed my point. strategy and technique are two different things. yes i learned what everybody else learned with sticks. what i am talking is that i never met a guy who really can fight as well with two stick as one.

i disagree that if you know how to use one stick it is just as easy to use two because of the hand. the weapon is and extension of the hand, but the way it does damage is totally different than the hand. same for the knife. if you think that they are the same then you are dealin too much with theory. haw much sparring do you do with two sticks i bet not much. yes, i am two dimesional, i deal with can you apply it, not in the "what if". my problem with so many so called expert is that they do to much "what if", like the so called knife expert. talk to any sacramento martial artist who knows me, they will tell you that i am a fighter first martial artis second. i never tell my student i am a blade expert, because i never fight with the blade...i spar, but i never faced a sharp blade. i am willing to bet these so called "knife expert" never did either. the same is for every other weapon and type of fight.

if anyone is ever in the sacramento area please stop by so i can see the double stick fight stragety in action. believe me i saw every explanation and rationlize everybody does it. i never saw anyone put it to use.

now, in the philippines i never saw a guy fight with two knifes, i never seen him fight with one! that has nothing to do with my credibility as a fighter. i have seen a lot of espada y daga, doble baston, chaku, but i never seen a real fight with that kinds of weapon. whenever i see it, it is always slow motion in a demo. i am willing to bet no one have sparred with espada y daga on this forum. they dont even do it in the tournament! and please dont give me that it's to deadly excuse. the dog brothers have showed that real fighting is still alive and very safe.

now, if you agree with me that not many people spar with it (how many of your teacher make you do it also?) how can there be a legitamate set of fighting techniques with these weapon? who was developing the experience with them? some of those guys in those famous "death matches"? yea right!

my brothers, i am only trying to make the point that much of what we practice is not fighting. when you try to find a reason to keep these outdated idea just for the sake of having them ("well, if he did this i could do THIS..." we end up like those poor guys who hold on to kata and tradition and call it "practical". the philippine martial arts are supposed to be practical and simple and always changing. not anymore.
 
Disregard.

[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 13 December 1999).]
 
I think too many people equate stick weaving with double stick fighting. I read that earlier in the Dog Brother fights no one faired very well with the double sticks.... it seemed that all the siniwali drills didn't translate real well to actual fighting. But from what I've read, the double sticks are fairing better these days. I think previously the second stick tended to split the focus of the fighter. Possibly the added experience has let the fighters utilize the aditional weapon? ...Or is it better tactics?

I am nowhere near the level of the Dog Bros or the other great stickfighters around, but my personal approach (with double sticks) is to utilize more of a boxing structure. I use my lead/left stick *primarily* to jab with, and I utilize the rear/right stick as my power hand. Also... I like the fluid attack that the Dog Bros use(power first!!!). This double attack uses the lead stick to clear the way for the powerful rear hand strike.

Just some thoughts...
~Kev
 
Ok..Kuntaoman..you're right! I guess I did lose something in the translation. You originally stated about whether or not people had training in using double weapons..that you had never seen it done except maybe Presas'..Ok. Then people responded with ways of understanding double weap[ons..Then after all the posts you say no one really figfhts that way, that you have never seen it, you have never seen knife fight, that any who practice without using EDGED tools are not really training, that ALL of us seem to have mixed up theory and practice...Ok..lets dump all the responses that SEEMED to answer what you ORIGINALLY stated..
What do you mean about double weapon?
1) no one really fights with double weapon on the street today? Ok fine
2) no one trains with live blades or edged tools in general..Ok fine again that dores not negate the value of the training nor of the teachers..unless shedding blood is important
3)That NO ONE understands the reality of it?
I doubt that.
4) That Filipino martial artes don't work in reality?? seems similar to other threads of yours.
5) That Sinawalli - weaving is conceptual..Ok fine.sure till its applied..conceptual uasge..
Again ..enlighten me..What are you trying to say..?????
 
The original question was about double STICK. But how someone chooses to train with double-stick depends on if they are training for stick-only, or looking for widely applicable lines that can be used with any impact or edged weapon.

I frequently train with live blades. Not with a partner (though I have), but solo (shadow-knifing?), and against the cutting tree, with folder, bowie, machetes and axes. I have cut myself but never seriously. You will never see a school or teacher advocate live-blade training in the united states, because of liability. My teachers were ex-military, and gave instruction to me as a friend, all backyard training. I learned mostly killing lines right away. Never really thought about it. (I think if you know what is a killing line you are less likely to kill someone by 'mistake.') When I trained or exchanged ideas with friends trained in dojos, they were somewhat taken aback, many have no concept of terminal followups. This is because of liability of public teachers, they will get sued.

In many of the double-stick drills, you will find yourself doing things that are not functional for an edged weapon like a machete. You make a lot of bizarre tennis-like backhands, that may be effective with an impact weapon, but with a machete you will only be slapping your opponent with the flat-side of the blade. Training with flat edged weapons, you are much more conscious of keeping the cutting edge at an angle of contact that it actually cuts. You can acheive the same speed and coordination with practice and have the added awareness of keeping the sharp edge at a cutting angle.

When you train with sticks exclusively, you dont 'automatically' accomadate for a cutting edge unless you are very aware of it. As I said above, this is fine if you only intend to use sticks, but if you want your siniwali to translate effectively to an edged weapon you need to be aware of it.

I think it is POSSIBLE to fight with two knives, but highly inadvisable. I think even a trained knifist is likely to cut himself, especially if a close-range wild slashing struggle ensues. I think is is feasable if you have more than one person coming at you from different angles. It is much more possible with machetes, or longer edged weapons. I think with training you are less likely to seriously cut yourself with larger blades. By larger, I mean an average machete or larger.

PS: There is a really good essay by Marc Denny on the Dog Brothers website about Neuro-linguistic Programming. He raises a valid point that no matter how much or effectively we train, our left hand is still psychologically our 'left' or 'weak' hand. How far this can be overcome depends on the individual, but would definately be a factor under stress.

[This message has been edited by James Sass (edited 12 December 1999).]
 
what i am saying is drills is not a good replacement for fighting technique or sparring. in dont care what anyone says, other than sparring, isolating hits, hit pattern, and footwork, stuff like that is a waste of time for fighting skill. give and take, waste of time. slow disarming against a strike that is left out for you, waste of time. sensitivity drill, waste of time. when you are fighting and your partner are in a clinch, or the split second you are making contact, that is the only sensitivity that will help you. when teaching someone, these ideas can not be pass on until you experience it yourself. now, about stickfighting, if you have not done a lot of sparring with doble sticks you should not try to claim to be an expert in that technique. what i am saying is that many people who are teaching the sinawali try to find many ways to do more sinawali instead of find useful strategy to use them. personally i dont like the doble stick i like the single stick, so when i spar i use single sticks. i can now say with confidence that i am a single stick teacher. when my students fight and one of them is getting his ass dugg out, i can tell him how to handle that situation. when many people teach doble stick they dont. they show a drill or a combination then the students practice for a while, then move to something else. two hours later they still did not learn to fight with their stick...just have more coordination (this is not fighting).

now, doble knife? i have never seen a real fight with them, i never did sparring with them, and i have no interest. therfore i say i am not an expert. if a so called knife expert spend more of his time doing drill, or doing combination and disarmings instead of sparring or fighting, he is not an expert. i am not saying that you have to have a real fight, but at least a lot of time sparring with them. if not, how can you teach someone else? how can you expect them to handle themself with a nerves wrecking fight, when you never put them to the test (or yourself and your technique to the test?) that is what i am saying about that.

i will say it again, i dont see doble stick fighting stragetys only theory and drill and combinations. does anyone see what i am talking about?
 
i also want to add i believe that the philippine styles work especially against other styles. i do think people are not willing to test themself anymore, so as other people are learning what we are doing, it is time for us to move to the next level. in my school i see "Filipino martial artist" every day come through from many different styles, and they all look alike. i am becoming very disappointed because that is not the fighting art that i remember. seminar and video have ruined our arts HERE in the u.s. in the p.i. at least the schools there fight a lot, but the american trend is drills and adding a lot of nothing. the best styles are the ones with just fighting techniques not the ones with "fluffy stuff". i read someone say every style have doble weapons, that is not true. every style HERE has it. anytime people who have never been to the philippines can make statements like "in the philippines they..." and eveyone believe it, something is wrong (like how our devastating styles pananjakman and panantukan are practice in the philippines...stadlire? augusto?)

also, i think it is on this thread, but i want to adress stadlire's comment not all kuntaw in the philippines is under lito lanada. mine is not.
 
Disregard.

[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 13 December 1999).]
 
Ok..I agree..Drills have no life of their own and drills are not fighting. But neither is sparring which is an interactive fighting DRILL> but both add to ones base of knowledge. If you don't teach and show concepts,,how do you expect anyone to understand what you are doing? osmosis?
I agre again that most people in general (i hate gerneralizations!) learn BOX drills and think they know double weapons.. I agree that they don't. I also agreee that fighting is usually single weapon usage BUT its conceptually always double.Hard not to, G*D,fate, life, gave us two arms n hands.
Aas to orientation of edge? thats where conceptual motiuo differs from Conceptual usage. Of course in SOLO one can use edged tools,,In partner drills its not real for no one is trying to actually, with intent cut the other..trainers work fine..as well as I couldn't afford the insurance nor take the risk..
 
I also DISAGREE about seminars and tapes ruining the arts.. They are great teaching aids and allow for the student to have access to new ideas, concepts and instructors that they might not ever have a chance to train with otherwise!
Sensitivety drills do teach reference points and ways to deal with situations,,Just doing it is not teaching anything but repetition of bad habits..Humans need to be taught...to be shown. Thats how we learn. You might be the worlds best natural fighter but I echo professor Presas,,I'm a slow learner and I have alot left to learn.
You feel drills have no validity? I guess boxers are doing it wrongg.martial arts have been doing it wrong..hell any applied activity is doing it wrong..we should all just do...no problemo..
I guess I don't agree with you or again I misunderstood what you meant...


 
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