Stop and frisk?

J

JohnF

Joined
Jan 8, 2001
Messages
181
Hi everyone! Has anyone ever had a problem with the police where they were frisked and their knife got them into trouble? I'm not talking a bar fight here or justifiable self defense USING a knife, but say a minor traffic offense or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And I don't mean when you were a teenager with a bad attitude. Today, as an adult (more or less) :)
It has never happened to me, but paranoia is rife in NYC, people worry about the cops like they used to worry about muggers!
John.
 
What do you carry, John? Make sure that your knife is well within the parameters of legality and that you aren't doing anything illegal when you get frisked. That won't guarrantee that you won't get trouble from an officer but it will mean that with a decent lawyer, you can get out of any trouble you may find yourself in. Although I'm no lawyer, my own advice is that if you frequent high frisk areas, carry a knife that is well under 4" (the NYC limit) and make sure that it looks utilitarian. A reasonable knife and sensible behavior are your best defenses.
 
Hey John, for what it's worth, the cops worry just as much
about being shot or stabbed by someone on the street. The stop and
frisk doctrine arises out of a Supreme Court decision, Terry vs. Ohio,
which, in part, describes probable cause for "stop and frisk" as "facts or apparent facts which would lead a man of reasonable caution to believe that a crime has been or is about to be committed"
These days, with all the street violence it has been expanded to include articulable fear, based upon circumstances at hand that a subject may be armed. The previous post was right on the money, carry a legal knife and you should'nt have a problem. If you get stopped and frisked and an illegal knife is found and the LEO can articulate that he was in reasonable (emphasis on reasonable) fear for his safety and suspected that you were armed (bulge in pocket, suspicious activity, furtive moves etc.) then an arrest for an illegal weapon will stand.
 
Know your local laws and do some case study. That will give you a better idea about what to expect in your area. I can't speak on NY, but in Ohio, there is no length law. it is up to the LEO to use his discretion. I have heard from Officers who were very uptight about a 3" folder and some that had no problem with a guy carrying a 5"+ FB concealed. Also, your attitude to the officer will figure in greatly. I had a friend who was arrested for CCW (Cold Steel XL Voyager) while at a party. The police had gone to the party 5 times to get everyone to quiet down. The 6th time they showed because someone called 911 for a squad. My friends an EMT and was assisting the injured person. The suqd arrives and so do the police. The police ask my friend to leave the scene. My friend wants to continue to assist, the police ask him again, my friend starts to get a liitle upset, the police say fine, you're under arrest. Several charges filed,one was CCW for the knife. After spending the night in jail, fines fees etc. CCW charge is dropped. He didn't learn a lesson from this, but he did learn from his lawyer that in centtral Ohio, the vast majority of knife related CCW charges get thrown out or are dropped. The lawyer said the police use this charge a lot of times to get someone off the street for a night or if you are causing them trouble, they use it to cause you some inconvenience.

Bob Kasper did a piece in a recent Tactical Knives. He basically said if you're going to carry a knife or gun for defense, know your laws, have the name of a lwyer familiar with self defense cases handy, have the name of a decent bailbondman.
 
The best thing to do is alway cooperate fully with the officer... but take notes, mentally if not on paper, of everything, especially the officer's identity. Remember, there'll be plenty of time for sorting out the details later if necessary. Right now, just cooperate with the officer. Just being friendly and cooperative will often make things go easily.

In most cases, officers wear name tags. I always address them, respectfully mind you, by name. I say, "Yes officer Smith, No officer Smith." It's respectful and nice, but it's also a subtle way of letting the officer know that I have taken note of his name. It generally puts them on their best behavior.

If the officer wants to confiscate your property, cooperate, but insist on a receipt.

Ask for the officer's business card. Most departments issue them to officers and they'll give you one if you ask.

I'm also always quick to thank officers for their help and also to praise them to their chief when they are helpful and polite. Some years ago, I had a bit of a car accident. One of Sherwood's finest pulled up rather promptly and helped me out. He let me sit in his car out of the rain until the tow truck arrived. We chatted. He showed me their in-car computer terminals. Very impressive. He was very friendly and polite. He gave me his card. Later, I wrote a nice letter to our police chief praising this officer for being so helpful. Some time later, I was walking to the grocery store as I often do when a police officer on a motor cycle pulled up beside me. As he removed his helmet, I recognized him as the helpful officer from my accident. He said, "You're the fellow who went flying off Tonquine road a few months ago, aren't you?"

"Yes, and you're the helpful officer who assisted me. How nice to see you again."

"The chief read your letter in front of the entire department. That's why I got to be on the motorcycle patrol which I've wanted for years. Thank you!"
 
make sure your knife complies w/local laws and ya shouldnt have a problem, unless other things are involved (ie drugs, assault, etc) most cops are busy enough locking up people who need to be to hassle good folks - notice i did say "most cops" - they reflect society as a whole and just like some people ya work w/are jerks, some cops are jerks - but as long as ya are carrying a knife w/in the legal limits ya should have no problems - and of course none of this is valid in kali, lol thats a whole 'nother ballgame lol....


sifu
 
I don't know about anyone else but I've had plenty of experience getting pulled over and so I simply roll down my window and then return my hands to 10 and 2 and sit still until the Police Officer can get to the door as they come in on stealth mode and appreciate being able to see both hands.

Usually they initiate the conversation and that is when I tell them where my ID and car information is and wait for them to say "Go ahead and get it." If I am on the way to a range and have a gun in the car I tell them at the earliest convenience where it is, that it is trigger locked, and where the ammunition is.

If they ask me to step out of the car I will tell them I have a knife and where it is.

I try not to act funny but just relax and be respectful responding with 'sir' or 'maam'. In my opinion, their job is stressful enough and I don't want to add to it. I've been pulled over WAY more times than I care to admit and have never had any trouble using this approach. I just let them call every action from the beginning to end and be patient and courteous.

Never had a problem but I've had plenty of experience. Interestingly enough though whenever I was broke down on the side of the road I never once saw a patrol car but when I find myself speeding there is always one around... :confused:

;) Shawn
 
hehehe...
Cops can't frisk me unless I give them a reason to think I am armed. They have to be able to prove that they saw that I was armed before they can ever frisk me. And should such a situation occur, I give my knife to my girlfriend, they will have to get a policewoman to frisk her. And should they frisk me, I have a permit to carry edged weapon concealed.
Sooo..the chances of me getting frisked are zero point zero, and if I ever get frisked, I won't lose my knife.

Love this worthless Belgian legal system. :D

greetz, Bart.
 
Bart,

How does the edged-weapon concealed-carry permit system in Belgium work, exactly?
 
Razor: Easy. all knives are wepons unless they don't block, so only friction folders are legal to carry at all times. If you can carry a hunting knife, depends wheter you're hunting or not. So I should be able to carry nothing, as I have no friction folders. But then the fun begins.
If cops wanna search you, they need a damn good cause, or they will be sued by me for harrasement. That cause would be if I was to carry/use a knife publicaly. A clip is concealed carry, so for looking at your pants which are clipped with 2 clips on each side, they cannot frisk you. Unless you use one and they see it.
That was for normal people. Now people with knife permits (knifemakers and sellers mostly). They are allowed to carry a knife concealed, how else do you wanna supply the shops? But those permits are not really something they care about, so If you walk around with two SIFU's, one in each hand, you will get into trouble, knifemakers or not.
Basically, as long as i don't give them a reason to suspect I carry a fighting knife, they can't frisk me at all.
Should I give them a reason, My permit comes out with the words "testing my knife for daily carry". Or on-route to possible seller.

Soo.. as long as they don't see it, and you don't give them a cause, you can carry anything.

Greetz, bart.
 
Excuse me jumping on the bandwagon here.

I'll be travelling in California soon and I've been worried about this too. :confused:

Does this 'stop and frisk' policy include backpacks? Are there places in California where I might get in trouble with a SAK or Gerber multitool (locking) in my backpack? How about the trunk of a car? What's the difference between carrying and transporting a knife? I.e. how can I transport knives which I have bought without beeing accused of carrying them. I'll be travelling with a tent, does that help?

I'm normally not worried about being stopped by police but as a foreigner I might act strangely out of ignorance without noticing myself.

Here in Germany we are better of :cool: Here almost all knives are legal (exceptions are large autos, double edged knives). You only have to be carefull when you go to demonstrations and such. Also I think the stop and frisk policy is more like the one in Belgium. At least I've never been frisked in my live.

culter
 
culte, It's bad in CA, but not THAT bad ! I would not worry at all about a SAK or multitool.

Someone else chime in here, but doesn't CA have a screwy law that allows no limit on length if concealed? I Thought that's they market the SIFU, El Grande, Mad Max, etc
 
I've read that state law isn't that bad in California anymore but that there are some pretty bad local community laws!?
 
Hey John, I'm a New Yorker out in VA but I go up there a lot (in fact going this weekend). The way I understood it was in NY City ALL knives carried on you regarless of size were illegal. I still carry, but if I see a cop in the area I unclip the knife, hide it deeper in the pocket, and act like my law abiding self. Later, when walking through the East Village at night my commander is clipped and ready to make that wave feature pay off. What have you heard about knives in City limits? Am I wrong in thinking that anything was illegal anyway? (Better tried by twelve than buried by six)
 
I know that cops in NYC have a lot of discretionary power. Basically if they want they can stop and frisk you if they "feel like it" (most cops aren't like this, and despite what people may thing about NYC they are usually pretty helpful). The thing is, if they feel that the knife you carry, is a weapon, they'll take it. doesn't matter whether it's a sifu or a spydie cricket. (probably a lot worth with a sifu).
My best advice is to become so used to a knife that you act natural with it, and just use plain common sense. don't act suspicious, and be fully cooperative. I work at a state college in NJ, where technicall, an SAK can get you in trouble (any "weapons" including all knives are illegal on a state facility). Because I act natural about it, I've pulled out my commander, enduras, and others with cops around, and just did what I needed to and put it away. Never got in trouble. I don't really suggest this though, but don't act like your knife is a weapon. Most cops I know of, aren't clear when it comes to wheter or not a knife is illegal, so just don't give them reason. to think it is.
 
culter - Yes, police can search your backpack, but they probably won't bother with you unless they see you doing something wrong or stupid first.

California laws are pretty simple: No switchblades or balisongs over 2 inches, and you can't conceal a fixed blade (no matter what size). That's it for state law. You can carry any fixed blade as long as it's not concealed. You can carry and conceal any size folder. If you're carrying a knife in a very obvious way, you'll get some funny looks. I just carry folders concealed. Some cities (e.g., Oakland & Berkeley) have more restrictive laws, like 3 inches. You should be okay with anything in the trunk of your car. Let me know if you have more specific questions. What part of California are you going to visit?
 
JohnF,

Here is how NY knife law works:

NY STATE: (1)It is illegal to possess any Gravity knife, Switchblade knife, Pilum ballistic knife, Metal knuckle knife, or cane sword.

(2)It is illegal to possess any Dagger, “Dangerous knife”, dirk, razor, stiletto, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon WITH THE INTENT TO USE THE SAME UNLAWFULLY AGAINST ANOTHER. So, what that just said is; it is LEGAL to possess the above (2)only) mentioned items as long as they can’t prove that you intended to use it “unlawfully against another”.

NY CITY: it is legal to possess any knife(following the above mentioned state guidelines) folder or fixed, with a blade length UNDER 4”. The knife MUST BE CONCEALED and cannot be taken into public view unless it is being used for a lawful purpose.


If stopped and asked if you have any weapons on you, you reply; “No officer I do not but I do have X amount of utility knives in such and such locations(be very specific and polite). If the police officer decides that he is going to confiscate your “legal” knife, very politely ask him for a receipt.

Some people say not to try and explain that the knife is legal, as you don’t want to get into a debate with the officer. Personally, I would. I would explain to the officer that the knife is legal and does not fall under any of the restrictions of the state law. I would explain the LEGAL reasons as to why I was carrying the knife. I carry a copy of NY state weapon law in my wallet with the knife parts highlighted and would ask the officer if I could show it to him. If he was not cooperative and still wanted to take the knife, then I would ask for a receipt. The key to this entire procedure is to be respectful and polite. Police are(usually) not the bad guys and should not be treated as such. There job is a VERY hard one, it is up to us to make it easier for them.
 
You guys think you have it bad- in N Ireland you can get in trouble with the law for carrying any folder with a lock! (unless you can prove you need it at your workplace) Of course, when laws are as strict as this people tend to ignore them......;)
 
Martial Way, thanks for the clarification on NYC knife law. Now, is the clip showing still considered conceled?
 
For the record, it's not probable cause that a police officer needs under federal law for a frisk, but reasonable suspicion which is a lower standard. State statute may be MORE restrictive but never less than the constitutional parameter.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top