Straight Razor Issue

H0kieengineer

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Jun 24, 2017
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I have a straight razor that I had custom made for me in CPM M4. It never shaved all that well, at least not compared to an old vintage razor that I have since given away. It’s real catchy in my cheeks and will just not do my neck or chin. I sent it out for sharpening and it’s no better. Is this a matter of picking a steel that has no business as a razor or razor design? It’s a 8/8 with a quarter hollow grind. If it is an issue with the design, is there any saving it?
 
Ugh. Can't rule out that it's the steel, I suppose, but when I bought an auction lot of cheap Japanese razors, just to have something to practice honing on, I took one of them all the way through my honing sequence, including final polish on a series of diamond-pasted balsa strops.

The razor shaved, including my difficult neck area. It did not catch or tug. But the shave was very uncomfortable. My skin burned. Looked at under the microscope, it was clear why -- the edge was ragged, compared to the sort of edge that the same treatment puts on a good razor with proper steel. That doesn't have to mean that all unsuitable steels have to behave the same way, but it's pretty different behavior.

So I am tempted to guess that it might be more geometry/grind, and maybe suitability for you. Do you have a tough beard? Was the razor you gave away also a quarter hollow grind, or was it perhaps more hollow?
 
Ugh. Can't rule out that it's the steel, I suppose, but when I bought an auction lot of cheap Japanese razors, just to have something to practice honing on, I took one of them all the way through my honing sequence, including final polish on a series of diamond-pasted balsa strops.

The razor shaved, including my difficult neck area. It did not catch or tug. But the shave was very uncomfortable. My skin burned. Looked at under the microscope, it was clear why -- the edge was ragged, compared to the sort of edge that the same treatment puts on a good razor with proper steel. That doesn't have to mean that all unsuitable steels have to behave the same way, but it's pretty different behavior.

So I am tempted to guess that it might be more geometry/grind, and maybe suitability for you. Do you have a tough beard? Was the razor you gave away also a quarter hollow grind, or was it perhaps more hollow?
The razor I gave away was much more hollow. I don’t think I have a particularly tough beard, a double edge razor cuts it pretty well. I may have to find a good old straight and try that. I really wonder if the steel I chose just had too many carbides to hold a true razor edge. Even if it can, sharpening it would be very difficult.
 
The razor I gave away was much more hollow. I don’t think I have a particularly tough beard, a double edge razor cuts it pretty well. I may have to find a good old straight and try that. I really wonder if the steel I chose just had too many carbides to hold a true razor edge. Even if it can, sharpening it would be very difficult.

I see what you're thinking, and I can't rule it out.

If you ever just give up on it, and you want to send it to me to analyze/try to hone/send back, PM me. I don't mean for money, but you've got me curious to look at it under the microscope, and see if my 4000 and 8000 CBN stones could do anything with it. I'm no expert, far from it, but I've honed some razors.
 
h0kieengineer has kindly entrusted his CPM M4 razor to me for analysis and honing.

This is a large, heavy razor, weighing in at 145 grams. Here it is, next to a Ralf Aust, for scale.SMALL Size Reference (2).JPG
It has a slight smile, hard to spot without magnification or placing the edge on a flat surface. The smile seems to have been induced by honing. Notice the deeper inroads into the honing guide at the heel and toe.

The blade feels sharp along most of its edge, but not anywhere near shaving-sharp. It shaves arm hair only if you let its considerable weight supply an extra push. It is not a smooth, clean-feeling edge, and is downright ragged at the toe and heel. I feel a subtle burr along one side of the edge.

Next up: microscope pictures of the edge.
 
The edge shows signs of having been honed on a fine finishing stone of an appropriate grit for razors. It's clearly not a diamond or CBN stone, which would leave different-looking scratches.

XTRA SMALL no logo middle (2).png

There is obvious edge damage (this is probably the worst section of the middle in that respect), plausibly caused by shaving. There are signs that the original grinding marks were not eliminated at the edge by the honing, even more apparent in this picture:

XTRA XTRA SMALL logo middle.png
This is a sign that not enough time was spent with stones finer than a final finisher, resulting in small jaggedness in the edge when one of those lines reaches it. You can also see minor signs of pitting near the edge, likely a sign that the razor had some tiny water droplets on it for an extended period of time.
This level of disturbance in an edge (in this section of the edge, not the one above) should not make for a bad shave.

The finish hone did not make it all the way to the toe.
XTRA XTRA SMALL no logo toe (2).png
The hone got closer to the heel, but not all the way to the edge.
XTRA XTRA SMALL no logo heel (2).png
The edge feels worse than these pictures look, but that could be the burr.
 
Considering the edge damage, and the lingering presence of grinding marks in the honed bevel, I think what's called for here is a re-beveling. I don't see much need for reshaping, but that could change once I see how flat and even the bevel is. Notwithstanding ToddS's recommendation above, I plan to start with an 800 grit vitrified stone, see how things progress under the microscope, and adjust from there.
 
Most favorite brand razors are plain ole carbon steel. I get 100 shaves on one.hone with clean linen and leather strop only. Which imo is more than adequate. I've honed some stupid hard razors in my day. I used a 4k(6 micron) diamond plate to set the bevels. And then up from there. I honed a few douglas cutlery razors. They were made from some stupid hard steel. They never shaved well. And we're prone to chipping etc.
 
Most favorite brand razors are plain ole carbon steel. I get 100 shaves on one.hone with clean linen and leather strop only. Which imo is more than adequate. I've honed some stupid hard razors in my day. I used a 4k(6 micron) diamond plate to set the bevels. And then up from there. I honed a few douglas cutlery razors. They were made from some stupid hard steel. They never shaved well. And we're prone to chipping etc.
Having just laboriously honed a razor that I would characterize as stupid hard, a 70 HRC stainless Titan that was made in Taiwan, I don't think I'd call this razor stupid hard. Surprisingly, it's not even close.

Yes, it's CPM M4, one of the new supersteels. But it's not stainless (4% chromium), and while it needs accommodation in terms of picking diamond stones, it's actually surprisingly tractable on those stones. A few hundred strokes on the 800 grit vitrified diamond stone, and the edge dings are gone. I see no chips from the honing, and no more raggedness than a carbon steel razor would exhibit on this same grit of normal waterstones, which is far less than it started with. There's still a lingering geometry problem with the toe end of the bevel, but I am starting to be cautiously optimistic, both in terms of the process being a lot easier than it was with that 70HRC horror, and in terms of the final result. We'll see.

FWIW, that 70HRC razor shaves really well, after tons of work.
 
m4s strenghts are its weakness imo. Most razor stones are softer than the tungsten and vanadium in it. Having said that its your baby! And do whatever floats your boat.
 
m4s strenghts are its weakness imo. Most razor stones are softer than the tungsten and vanadium in it. Having said that its your baby! And do whatever floats your boat.
Well, it's someone else's baby. But I'm trying to be a good babysitter.
 
I'm quite pleased with how well this steel has responded to the 800 grit diamond stone.
XTRA SMALL 800 no logo middle (2).png
The edge shows only the minimal jitters expected for this grit. The grinding lines are no longer passing through to the edge. And the heel and toe are now participating.
XTRA SMALL 800 logo heel (2).pngXTRA SMALL 800 logo toe (2).png
I'm starting to wonder if this may be a pretty darned good razor steel after all, as long as you have diamonds. Maybe, maybe not. But this is a very happy intermediate result. Onward to the finer stones!
 
I’m loving this. It’s great to see someone approach sharpening my razor with science as opposed to the “sprinkle the fairy dust during a full moon” approach I have heard before. I can’t wait to see the results.


Most favorite brand razors are plain ole carbon steel. I get 100 shaves on one.hone with clean linen and leather strop only. Which imo is more than adequate. I've honed some stupid hard razors in my day. I used a 4k(6 micron) diamond plate to set the bevels. And then up from there. I honed a few douglas cutlery razors. They were made from some stupid hard steel. They never shaved well. And we're prone to chipping etc.
I think that the CPM super steels maybe better than older super hard steels simply due to the finer and more dispersed carbides as well as simply better steel making practice. That being said, I do know lots of people that get nothing but good results with O1. As a professional metallurgist though, I wanted to go a bit over the top.
 
I’m loving this. It’s great to see someone approach sharpening my razor with science as opposed to the “sprinkle the fairy dust during a full moon” approach I have heard before. I can’t wait to see the results.
It may be a failure of imagination, but I've never quite grasped how anyone learns to hone without a microscope. There are so many useful surprises when you blow things up so you can see them. Including this one.
XTRA SMALL 3000 logo toe (2).png
So what do we have there? Well, this is the toe on one side of the razor. It has some nice fine scratches from the Naniwa 3000 diamond stone. But it took hundreds of strokes to get it like that, and it still does not look like the rest of the edge, which is starting to look downright polished (as polished tends to look under a microscope).
XTRA SMALL 3000 no logo middle (2).png
So what's the difference? Well, for one thing, I suspect that smile. It seems possible that whoever made it actually lifted off the honing guide a bit. Can't say for sure. But another point is a thing that I see all the time, armed with the microscope, that I don't think I've ever seen discussed.

You can hone on a stone, and see perfect lines all the way along, and think you've got everything nailed. Then you drop down to a finer stone, and what you see is some places getting scratches, and other places not. The bevel was only flat relative to that prior grit, and there's some work to be done before it's flat to the new grit standard. The only solution to that is more strokes. I hope someday to find another, such as some way to spot what's going on before moving to the finer grit.

Anyway, my radar says that these scratches are sufficient to move on with, so I will proceed to 6000 grit Naniwa diamond next. After that, I may mix things up a bit, as I had to do on that 70HRC razor, or I may not. My guess is not. That razor was tearing up pretty badly on the edge, presumably due to brittleness. This one is not. Although it is interesting to note that the edge has not gotten less ragged, not that it was that ragged in the first place. But when honing on JNats, there is generally a steady reduction in raggedness as you move down the grits. It's also possible that resin-bonded diamond produces edges that are more ragged than vitrified diamond stones do. I don't want that to be true, because it's an expensive idea, but it could be true.

That's all defeatist talk, though. The edge looks good, for this stage of things, to my eye and my thumb, so it's time for the next step.
 
As I feared, the 6000 diamond stone made the edge more polished, but not less jagged. I know it's not that jagged, but it still feels like a tomato-cutting edge instead of a face shaving edge. Same thing happened on the 70HRC razor, but I think it may be less about the steel than about the diamond stones. Fortunately, I have a trick that worked on the other razor. I've got a couple of finishing JNats that invariably produce a nice even flat edge. So I will go use them for a while, then come back to the diamonds. Hey, it worked with the other razor, why not with this one? Returning to diamonds should avoid the "you honed away the soft steel and left a bunch of carbide teeth" problem. We'll see.
 
OK, the JNat finishers have worked their magic, and it worked as it generally does.
XTRA SMALL JNat finisher middle (2).png
I don't know why it works, but it does. Just look at that straight edge. I love these stones. The toe (on the worst side) has fared less well, but has also benefited, because I violated all my principles and lifted the razor off the stone to make this happen. If this were my razor, I'd live with this for a few shaves, and then go straight to the 400 grit diamonds to get rid of this bad smile. Bad because the toe is not even with the rest of the bevel. I mean, I have a bias against smiles, but even if I did not, this one is just not right. A proper smile should engage with the stone without lifting off, as long as you move the blade ends to accommodate it.
XTRA SMALL Jnat finisher toe (3).png
Next up: 1 micron diamond stone, followed by balsa strops pasted with diamond in 0.5, 0.25, and 0.1 grits. Then the strop and shave test. I might have forgotten to mention that the shave is my ultimate test. H0kieengineer H0kieengineer , if you object to my shaving with your razor, please speak up. I will sterilize it in 99% isopropyl alcohol before returning it to you.
 
OK, the JNat finishers have worked their magic, and it worked as it generally does.
View attachment 1560659
I don't know why it works, but it does. Just look at that straight edge. I love these stones. The toe (on the worst side) has fared less well, but has also benefited, because I violated all my principles and lifted the razor off the stone to make this happen. If this were my razor, I'd live with this for a few shaves, and then go straight to the 400 grit diamonds to get rid of this bad smile. Bad because the toe is not even with the rest of the bevel. I mean, I have a bias against smiles, but even if I did not, this one is just not right. A proper smile should engage with the stone without lifting off, as long as you move the blade ends to accommodate it.
View attachment 1560661
Next up: 1 micron diamond stone, followed by balsa strops pasted with diamond in 0.5, 0.25, and 0.1 grits. Then the strop and shave test. I might have forgotten to mention that the shave is my ultimate test. H0kieengineer H0kieengineer , if you object to my shaving with your razor, please speak up. I will sterilize it in 99% isopropyl alcohol before returning it to you.
Please, go right ahead. I am curious to hear how it performs for you.
 
The bevel is fine in the middle, fine on both sides of the heel, and fine on one side of the toe. The other side is giving me fits. You can see in the most recent picture that even some distance from the toe, the scratches are not reaching all the way to the edge; there's a band of untouched metal there. When I first examined the razor under the microscope, before it had touched any of my stones, I saw this, and assumed it was a burr. I couldn't feel it, but what else could it be? Now I understand it's a low area at the end of the bevel on one side.

As I mentioned, if this were my razor, I'd shave with it a few times, then do a radical re-beveling, making the whole bevel straight and flat and even. It would mean some hours of taking off metal, probably. It's not as though I would ever put a 120 grit stone on a razor; it has to be more gradual. OK, I'm not going to do that, but I didn't want to just leave it and call it a day.

So I'm doing something else instead. I spent some time with a very firm grip on the razor, holding a known-flat stone up to my Optivisor-enhanced eye, and trying to see what sort of adjustment of the razor's position on it reaches that lowered bevel. In figuring that out, I also think I've reverse-engineered how the smile came to be. I think that the honer who created it was doing the sort of boat hull curve on the stone that one does to create or hone a smile, starting with the heel. But on one side, he lifted his elbow up a bit each time he reached the toe, like you would when sharpening to the point of a knife, bringing the bevel there down below the rest of the bevel, and therefore depriving it of contact with the stone when honed more conventionally.

That in turn suggests an approach: I'm going back to my final finisher JNat, maybe even the last two in the sequence, and try some of the same sort of strokes, on the bad side only, and see whether I can reach that part of the bevel and at least make things somewhat better.
 
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OK, that worked. The result is not beautiful, in any objective way, but it is beautiful to me, because I can see the JNat finisher lines at the very edge of the toe.
XTRA SMALL Elbow logo toe (2).png
Now I can move on. Next up is the 1 micron diamond stone (again), using only trailing-edge strokes, with that same elbow rising maneuver on the bad side. Sometimes I think that that the reason I fix these sort of issues on my own razors is that I have an aversion to keeping track of what sort of odd contortions each razor needs. It's simplest if they are all the same, dead flat.
 
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