Stropping vs Ultra Fine Stones

G

Georgeib

Joined
Feb 4, 2019
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Could you guys shed some light on this question, please? Are there any advantages to stropping with, say, a 15000 (1 micron) emulsion on a kangaroo hide (or perhaps even balsa) Edge Pro stone vs a 15000 grit Suehiro Gokumyo stone for example?

Thanks for your help, and sorry for all the newb questions.
 
I'm sorry if the question has been well settled. I did try searching and couldn't find anything addressing it specifically. Thanks.
 
the 3-finger slide test
Click to expand...
What is the "slide test " ?
I'm familiar with Murray Carter's three finger test but sliding doesn't tend to come into it as far as I can tell.

I see the pictures. The edges are smoother and prettier.
I know what I know from actual sharpening with no strop.
Sounds like there is a little too much hand sharpening going on there in my view.

Here is what happens with my sharpening on my Edge Pro Apex :
I go through three to five grits depending on the degree of dullness of the edge (I don't let my edges get much duller than "won't scrape a little hair if I hold my tongue just right. :)
Maybe the best way to describe it is barely won't shave at all.

Now we are talking decent steel here; that funny stainless stuff around 55 HRC is a whole 'nother story. Strop it or tear the bur off what ever you got to do.
BUT
When using decent tool steel with some hardness . . .
I work through the grits on the Edge Pro aiming to remove the bur as I go but not obsessing about it; there is usually the faintest hint of some bur like fragments up to a visible but extremely small bur all along the edge. I don't steepen the angle I just do some edge leading then some edge trailing.
CERTAINLY NOT 20 strokes . . . on the order of four to six.
Bur gone . . . sure there may be some microscopic burness there that I can't see with the strongest jeweler's visor with the added loop.
Doesn't matter.
Why ? ? ? ? doesn't it matter.
Well . . . the edge whittles hair very easily; the hard way from root toward the tip while the hair is still in my arm . . . multiple curls AND holds up super well in use, see comments below.
AAAAAAAND this is off a mere Shapton Glass 4,000 stone.
Sure I like to "play" with higher grit stones 8,000 . . . 15,0000 etc.
I'm just saying 4,000 . . . hair whittling . . . done.
So . . . that edge is going to suck right ? . . . roll over and double back like the 180° edge and just suck or tear off and be just so so . . . right ?
All I can say is : Doesn't matter because after a week of seriously hard to cut, challenging tasks that I cut every week at work most days, meaning I can test an edge pretty darned accurately and consistently in the real world . . .
well
That edge is still shaving and doing some hair whittling and I am completely happy and pleased with the edge.
I COULD NOT ASK FOR A BETTER EDGE . . . or I would be pursuing it with higher grits and strops and voodoo and sacrificing three legged chickens . . . you know . . . what ever it takes.

Zero stropping.
Tell me again . . . why do I want to strop?

I've done a ton of stropping in the past. I hate the whole mess.
IMO
Pointless activity.

PS : Edge Pro . . . or some other dambed sharpening jig = The StropEliminator .
 
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Wowbagger said:
What is the "slide test " ?
I'm familiar with Murray Carter's three finger test but sliding doesn't tend to come into it as far as I can tell.

I see the pictures. The edges are smoother and prettier.
I know what I know from actual sharpening with no strop.
Sounds like there is a little too much hand sharpening going on there in my view.

Here is what happens with my sharpening on my Edge Pro Apex :
I go through three to five grits depending on the degree of dullness of the edge (I don't let my edges get much duller than "won't scrape a little hair if I hold my tongue just right. :)
Maybe the best way to describe it is barely won't shave at all.

Now we are talking decent steel here; that funny stainless stuff around 55 HRC is a whole 'nother story. Strop it or tear the bur off what ever you got to do.
BUT
When using decent tool steel with some hardness . . .
I work through the grits on the Edge Pro aiming to remove the bur as I go but not obsessing about it; there is usually the faintest hint of some bur like fragments up to a visible but extremely small bur all along the edge. I don't steepen the angle I just do some edge leading then some edge trailing.
CERTAINLY NOT 20 strokes . . . on the order of four to six.
Bur gone . . . sure there may be some microscopic burness there that I can't see with the strongest jeweler's visor with the added loop.
Doesn't matter.
Why ? ? ? ? doesn't it matter.
Well . . . the edge whittles hair very easily; the hard way from root toward the tip while the hair is still in my arm . . . multiple curls AND holds up super well in use, see comments below.
AAAAAAAND this is off a mere Shapton Glass 4,000 stone.
Sure I like to "play" with higher grit stones 8,000 . . . 15,0000 etc.
I'm just saying 4,000 . . . hair whittling . . . done.
So . . . that edge is going to suck right ? . . . roll over and double back like the 180° edge and just suck or tear off and be just so so . . . right ?
All I can say is : Doesn't matter because after a week of seriously hard to cut, challenging tasks that I cut every week at work most days, meaning I can test an edge pretty darned accurately and consistently in the real world . . .
well
That edge is still shaving and doing some hair whittling and I am completely happy and pleased with the edge.
I COULD NOT ASK FOR A BETTER EDGE . . . or I would be pursuing it with higher grits and strops and voodoo and sacrificing three legged chickens . . . you know . . . what ever it takes.

Zero stropping.
Tell me again . . . why do I want to strop?

I've done a ton of stropping in the past. I hate the whole mess.
IMO
Pointless activity.

PS : Edge Pro . . . or some other dambed sharpening jig = The StropEliminator .
Click to expand...
anyone reading this drivel? Dude....

Shorten your replies. Make them something anyone would want to read.

I’m serious. You need to get to the point of your posts. You go on and on and on about different stones and this and that and the other thing....

Every one of them is a long drawn out affair of type upon type upon type.

Just....get to the point. For crying out loud. You do have some good things to say....every now and again.

Just tell the audience/reader what it is you’re on about. No one wants to read through your usual drivel.

Good Lord man!!! Usually with you it’s..what is the point????

I don’t care about your reply to me. At all. I’m just trying to steer you in a better direction. Usually your posts go on and on about “your” “theory” and just adds to so much confusion.


If and when you feel inclined to reply to a post, answer the posted question in a direct answer that addresses the question posted. You tend to go on and on and on about stuff you’ve done, steels you have experience with, stones you have experience with, how the OP needs to just drop everything and listen to whatever you have to say....etc.

Just get to the point. You have the ability to help. It just ain’t happening here. Or often.
 
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I AM, for one, familiar with MC's finger tests, and yes....... "sliding" across the fingertips is an excellent method of telling how sharp an edge is. It may not be exactly MCs method, but it is one of my methods. I find it hard to believe anyone would challenge such a test. This is an excellent method of testing not only how well an apex has been formed, but how aggressive it is. A "dig into the thumbnail" works pretty well for apex formation. Sliding across the fingertips is a good way of telling how aggressive it is. But you can't be a nanny doing such. Need a look at my fingertips up close? They're shredded. And that didn't happen with M4, either.
 
samuraistuart said:
You have the ability to help. It just ain’t happening here
Click to expand...
. . . annnnnnd . . . you made two posts and you answered this the OP's question(s) how ?
Are there any advantages to stropping with, say, a 15000 (1 micron) emulsion on a kangaroo hide (or perhaps even balsa) Edge Pro stone vs a 15000 grit Suehiro Gokumyo stone for example?
Click to expand...
 
After reading the articles linked by brando555 brando555 , the only conclusion I'm able to draw is that you might get a bit of micro-convexing with stropping, which may help clean up the edge. Is this right? However, there is the danger of over-stropping that can create a foil edge.

Honestly, still confused.
 
Georgeib said:
After reading the articles linked by brando555 brando555 , the only conclusion I'm able to draw is that you might get a bit of micro-convexing with stropping, which may help clean up the edge. Is this right? However, there is the danger of over-stropping that can create a foil edge.

Honestly, still confused.
Click to expand...

There are so many ways stropping can either help or degrade the edge. Part depends on technique, part of it depends on what abrasive compound (if any at all) is used, and still another part depends on the firmness or softness of the substrate holding the compound.

In the best of all worlds, if technique is good and the choice of abrasive is appropriate to the steel and the goal (how much abrasion or additional thinning/refinement is actually needed) and the substrate is appropriately firm, a lot of good can be done. Also, with experience, one can also gauge just how much or how little work is actually needed in any given circumstance, without going too far and overkilling the job. For example, if coming straight off the stones with good finishing technique there, one may not need to use a compound on the strop at all, and instead just rely on bare leather to gently scrub away the very thin & weak remnants of burrs. On the other hand, if there's a heavy, thick, stiff & tough burr left after the stonework, then a more aggressive strop & compound would be needed to clean that up, by abrading the heavy burr away. Recognizing the difference between those two scenarios, and therefore making a good choice of what's needed, is something that will come with experience.

On the flipside, if technique isn't so perfect and poor choices are made for the abrasive (not appropriate to the steel) and the substrate (too soft), then more damage than good will result. Too-aggressive a compound on a too-soft substrate, with angle held too high or pressure too heavy, will round off and ruin a clean edge in no time at all.

And some will eventually figure out they can do everything they need without any stropping at all, with good finishing technique on stones alone.
 
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^What he said

From my experience there's not a huge difference between an edge finished on a super fine stone vs. one stropped with 1 or lower micron diamond. Either method will produce a screaming sharp edge with the right technique.

Also, if you're using an edge pro you can take your polish tapes and dope them with diamond compound and get a nice keen edge that way. I've used 1 micron diamond on the 3000 and 6000 grit tapes with good results.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
There are so many ways stropping can either help or degrade the edge. Part depends on technique, part of it depends on what abrasive compound (if any at all) is used, and still another part depends on the firmness or softness of the substrate holding the compound.

In the best of all worlds, if technique is good and the choice of abrasive is appropriate to the steel and the goal (how much abrasion or additional thinning/refinement is actually needed) and the substrate is appropriately firm, a lot of good can be done. Also, with experience, one can also gauge just how much or how little work is actually needed in any given circumstance, without going too far and overkilling the job. For example, if coming straight off the stones with good finishing technique there, one may not need to use a compound on the strop at all, and instead just rely on bare leather to gently scrub away the very thin & weak remnants of burrs. On the other hand, if there's a heavy, thick, stiff & tough burr left after the stonework, then a more aggressive strop & compound would be needed to clean that up, by abrading the heavy burr away. Recognizing the difference between those two scenarios, and therefore making a good choice of what's needed, is something that will come with experience.

On the flipside, if technique isn't so perfect and poor choices are made for the abrasive (not appropriate to the steel) and the substrate (too soft), then more damage than good will result. Too-aggressive a compound on a too-soft substrate, with angle held too high or pressure too heavy, will round off and ruin a clean edge in no time at all.

And some will eventually figure out they can do everything they need without any stropping at all, with good finishing technique on stones alone.
Click to expand...
Wow. Thank you. I've got a lot to learn...

At this point, I get it right sometimes, and sometimes not. I'm trying to be consistent so that I can learn what effect any changes actually have. But now, I've also got to take into consideration the differences in steels and stones, and the effects of technique on each. Lots of variables. Fun! (w/ a bit of trepidation of course)
 
Lots of good info here. My standard strop setup is 3um diamond paste on rough side up cowhide. I haven't had good luck with balsa, but I'm sure it's my technique.

My goal is to come straight off the stones and not strop at all, but I'm just not there yet. I can feel and see just a tiny bit of burr left when coming off the stones. So I always end up stropping a few passes. Unfortunately this almost always removes much of the aggressiveness left by the stone, but the edge will grab hair much easier after stropping, and the apex looks cleaner.

I, for one, enjoy Wowbagger Wowbagger 's posts.
 
brando555 said:
^What he said

From my experience there's not a huge difference between an edge finished on a super fine stone vs. one stropped with 1 or lower micron diamond. Either method will produce a screaming sharp edge with the right technique.

Also, if you're using an edge pro you can take your polish tapes and dope them with diamond compound and get a nice keen edge that way. I've used 1 micron diamond on the 3000 and 6000 grit tapes with good results.
Click to expand...
I've actually got a Hapstone V7 with the "basic stones", and a full set of Diamond Matrix Edge Pro stones up to the 4000 one. Just ordered a kangaroo strop, mounted on an EP blank, and 2 oz of 1 micron diamond emulsion from CKTG. It wasn't til after I'd already ordered the strop and emulsion that I saw the 15000 grit Suehiro Gokumyo stone, which is what prompted my original question.
 
ejames13 said:
Lots of good info here. My standard strop setup is 3um diamond paste on rough side up cowhide. I haven't had good luck with balsa, but I'm sure it's my technique.

My goal is to come straight off the stones and not strop at all, but I'm just not there yet. I can feel and see just a tiny bit of burr left when coming off the stones. So I always end up stropping a few passes. Unfortunately this almost always removes much of the aggressiveness left by the stone, but the edge will grab hair much easier after stropping, and the apex looks cleaner.

I, for one, enjoy Wowbagger Wowbagger 's posts.
Click to expand...
How fine a stone do you finish with before stropping?
 
Georgeib said:
How fine a stone do you finish with before stropping?
Click to expand...

I generally finishing on the EdgePro 400 grit stone, but I have been trying the 1000 grit recently. I get about the same level of remaining burr regardless which one I finish with.
 
Interesting discussion, my personal advice is to use magnification to examine the apex. I have 10x & 15x eye loops as well as a Nikon microscope with several eyepiece sets and variable power from 5x up to 80x. Purchased used on the big auction site and very entertaining.

Great fun to experiment with theories on stropping,,,, leather thickness and hardness vs pressure applied to blade. Some use only the weight of the knife on thin hard leather,,, no rounding of apex is present. Balsa, hard wood, hard felt with green CrO or CBN/diamond compounds,,, experiment and discover various results from technique vs. steel alloy and hardness.

Is your goal removal of burr or refining the apex after relatively coarse stone?
Vary the stopping angle relative to the initial apex formation.

I also like the little blue plastic wedges that reference the blade angle relative to the stone/strop surface. Inexpensive on the big A.... site, search for "sharpening angle wedges".

Regards,
FK
 
Great information FK. Elsewhere on BF I found instructions on preparing the leather before making a strop. This involved wetting it, partial dry and then really rolling it hard with a heavy roller for 5 minutes or so.
This really did harden up the latigo leather I was using and supposedly also brought the natural silicate so the surface.
I am happy with the results the leather on my strop really does seem nice and firm and hardly gives even with moderate pressure.
 
Georgeib said:
After reading the articles linked by brando555 brando555 , the only conclusion I'm able to draw is that you might get a bit of micro-convexing with stropping, which may help clean up the edge. Is this right? However, there is the danger of over-stropping that can create a foil edge.

Honestly, still confused.
Click to expand...

The point of stropping is to produce micro-convexity. A foil edge is the result of UNDER-stropping, not over-stropping.

Most straight razors have a 16 degree included angle. With an ultra fine stone, you can achieve sufficient keenness for shaving, but that 16 degrees is too acute for all but boyish beards.

By creating that micro-convexity, you will increase the strength of the apex, and also improve keenness.
 
It is my understanding that razors are very different than our discussion on knives.
The knives we discuss have an apex of 30-24 degrees included angle on a much thicker blade support. You must flex the strop surface with hard pressure or have a rather soft flexible strop medium to convex the edge. The strop material is fixed to a stiff wooden (typically) base and is firmly supported.

Razors are hollow ground behind the very shallow apex and the steel will flex easily to help form the convex edge shape. In addition the strop is free hanging and deflects when stropping to create the desired convex apex micro bevel. Search "straight razor blade profile" and compare the illustrations to our knives.

Regards,
FK
 
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