Recommendation? Struggling to choose my Chosera or Shapton Edge Pro stones

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pnsxyr

Joined
Aug 29, 2013
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Greetings! I have an EP Apex with the 200/320/400/600/1000 stones, 2000/3000 polishing tape, and a 5000 Chosera for finishing. I had a kangaroo strop, but I think it hopped away as I can't find it. I'd like to purchase 2-4 likely Chosera or Shapton (probably glass) stones for my EP.

Based on what I have read, the Chosera and Shapton stones are not nearly as water hungry and do not wear nearly as fast, with the Shapton glass having the greatest advantage in this regard. The more rapid wear of the EP stones is something I find a bit frustrating, as leveling them is a bit of a messy pain. I would prefer a stone that wears slower, uses less water, and is easy to clean.

Predominantly, I am sharpening S30V/S35VN/CPM-154 for common stainless, Aogami Blue #2 and Super, 52100, and various stainless/low carbon grades for kitchen knives, occasionally M390, and one day I might have to sharpen K390 (if it ever dulls lol). Most of the sharpening is not extensive reprofiling, and the EP stones I find myself using the most are 400 and 1000 along with the 5000 Chosera - in fact, I am finding in most cases I just do 1000-->5000, and I feel like the 5000 is where the knife becomes what I consider to be 'sharp'. I would consider my burr formation skills to be about average, but it can always improve.

It looks like there are at least 12 Shapton glass stones ranging from 120 grit up to 30k, and it looks like the Choseras are also plentiful in variety. I don't think I need much in the way of the coarser stones for my own usage, but I am kind of stumped on which medium and finer ones to select if I am limiting myself to somewhere between 2-4 stones and want to form a reasonable series of intervals relative to the specific usage I do.

Right now, I am leaning towards the Shapton glass 500/1000/6000 or 400/1000/5000 5.5mm thick Choseras. Are these reasonable intervals for me or would this be ill-advised? Is an average user like myself going to be able to attain much of a difference with the extremely fine stones beyond 5000-6000? Anything else I should know going into this beyond the normal online stuff? I really appreciate your insight. Cheers!
 
I would ask the same question as mr Wizard (aka The Wiz,lol) about looking into Diamond matrix stones on the EP website. And then, how far worn do your knifes get b4 sharpening. Do you need to re-profile very often and are you going to good cutting edges or are you into very high polished edges real often. It sounds like high polish is a priority with the tapes and 5000 Chosera.
After these questions I could make my opinion.
 
Mr.Wizard said:
Have you seriously considered the Diamond Matrix stones instead?
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To be honest, I did not know they existed until you mentioned this. I've not used diamond stones in the past so I am going to read up on them and diamond stones in general. Thanks!
 
sickpuppy1 said:
I would ask the same question as mr Wizard (aka The Wiz,lol) about looking into Diamond matrix stones on the EP website. And then, how far worn do your knifes get b4 sharpening. Do you need to re-profile very often and are you going to good cutting edges or are you into very high polished edges real often. It sounds like high polish is a priority with the tapes and 5000 Chosera.
After these questions I could make my opinion.
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In terms of wear, I generally sharpen after they no longer easily shave hair and I am using 1000 and 5000 grit the most. I rarely reprofile. Since getting an EP, I've generally done polished edges but I am open to alternative protocols over my current method. Thanks!
 
I would buy the venev diamond stones in 100% concentration over the edge pro matrix stones,the matrix stones polish a bit better but the venev stones give your edge more bite,I was not impressed at all with the matrix stones I had.

A few of my friends on facebook who purchased the matrix stones first ended up getting the venev 400 800 and 1200 for finishing because they were not happy with how sharp theirs were with the matrix stones.
 
Thats interesting Wade! Last time I saw, you had turned down a chance to use the entire set for trial period cause yo were too busy and wouldnt get a chance to use them. But whatever, sorry you didnt like them.
 
sickpuppy1 said:
Thats interesting Wade! Last time I saw, you had turned down a chance to use the entire set for trial period cause yo were too busy and wouldnt get a chance to use them. But whatever, sorry you didnt like them.
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I was able to buy some off a a friend from the states who didn't like them and wanted to know if I wanted to buy them at half price but I sold them after not liking liking them.

I don't think the Matrix stones are terrible I just didn't care for them myself,I just found that the venev stones give your edge more bite,it has been noted on a lot of the facebook groups that people who have tried both the venev and matrix stones,find the the matrix stones polish better but don't give your edge as much bite.

I get the feeling that people think I have something against the matrix stones for some reason and I don't,I wasn't to interested in trying them when the first offer was made to me from people who I know that tried them day 1 and din't like them a lot and I always like to try new stuff and when the second offer was made to me I purchased them cheap I din't like them and sold them for the same thing I purchased them for to a friend of mine in Canada.
 
Wow Wade, that is a pretty damning review! I wish you would have come here and posted your thoughts about the Matrix stones as you were using them so I could maybe help out. They are totally different than the Venevs and need to be used differently for their best performance. I do have a few questions, please. I am only listing for clarity, not to be overbearing, I am really interested in your answers.

1 - What grits did you get?
2 - How much time, how many knives did you spend with them?
3 - How many times did you dress them? Did you use around 240 grit loose abrasive on a flat plate?
4 - Did you use light pressure?
5 - Did you use only edge trailing strokes to refine?
6 - Can you give me a link to the Facebook group that you refer to?

Man, you got to talk to me here, I need to understand how you based your opinion on my stones, please. I know how they stack up against Venevs and if you find they performed so poorly then something or things were done wrong. I certainly won't be saying the Matrix stones are the best since there is no such thing. It's kind of like ice cream flavors, we all have our favorites. If this is too much thread drift then let's take it up in the Matrix stone thread, which sickpuppy1 linked to in post #6.
 
Okay...so the Venev and Matrix stones are going to have the advantages that they will, A) cut more rapidly, B) cut more abrasive steels notably more rapidly, C) maintain excellent life if you do not use excessive pressure, and D) wear so slowly that I will not have to level them nearly as much. For my usage, would be the optimal grits if I were to purchase three be 650/1100/4000, or do I really need that 2500 too?

I am leaning towards the Matrix stones after perusing that thread. The ability to get support from EP has been great over the years, so I am always happy about financially supporting them, and having direct access to the maker of the stones themselves is something I consider to outstanding given we're talking about products with capabilities that are far, far, far above my current level of technical skill.
 
pnsxyr said:
For my usage, would be the optimal grits if I were to purchase three be 650/1100/4000, or do I really need that 2500 too?
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Diemaker said:
It depends on how polished you want to go but 250 to 2300 would by my pick, with the 80 next and 4k last. If you are hard on your knives or sharpen for others you will want the 80 as your coarsest stone. Since these are diamond and you really want to use light pressure you should start coarser rather than using more pressure with your first stone, they just work better this way, both the stones and what they do to your knives.

You can skip one grit and get away with an extra 50% more strokes, 15 instead of 10 per grit per 3" of blade, but your angles have to repeat perfectly. The grit progression we picked is good for the real world. After all these years we, EP and I, still use what we sell in our own sharpening. After all we both have Matrix stones in 13 different grits to choose from so if we wanted something different it is right there on the shelf.

I strongly urge you not to jump around on Matrix grits. Wherever you start continue with even steps, they will work much better this way. They are designed as a set, there are no extras in the middle, only on the ends.
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I bough the original KME Venev stone set from exchange before diemaker announced. So, I have followed right along. I love the Venev's, but see advantages of supporting local production and 2 more inches of stone length on the KME. I'm looking forward to getting diemaker's 80 grit and using on a modified KME that allows for full length strokes on kitchen size knives. No magic really, Stone in Gritomatic stone holder, located on free moving KME axe sharpener, magnetically attached to horizontal nylon slide with steel sleeve. This does 2 things, it places stone position behind current plane of rod holder to use longer stones, and extends limit of stock clamp for much longer knives. Although I need to say, current KME limits can be extended with clamping technique, identifying "limits" as perceptual for practical purposes.
 
I spoke to Ben and started with purchasing the 2300 and 4000 Matrix stones to act as my finishing stones in conjunction with the 400 and 1000 EP aluminum oxide stones. As I noted previously, I generally sharpen before excessive dulling. I started with a M390 BM 707 that was a little below shaving sharp and the 2300 stone. I liked the feedback I got. After just a hand full of trailing passes with the 2300, I got the knife so sharp that I started to get a little bit concerned, and wound up not even using the 4000. Then I tried a Wustof paring knife with the 2300...again I got it sharp to a point where I felt a little uncomfortable. It sails through paracord. It cuts hair without the blade making contact with my skin if I run it along the base of the hair. Needless to say, I am extremely pleased to be able to achieve such results, and I am going to purchase the 250, 650, and 1100 as well, although I am guessing I will typically be starting at 1100 or 2300 as going coarser would just unnecessarily remove more steel.

Question - if I have the 250-4000 Diamond Matrix stones, and I wish to reprofile a blade or sharpen a super dull blade with some significant edge damage, should I use the 250 Diamond Matrix (with more than the 10-ish strokes, obviously), or start with the 220 EP stone and then move to the 250 Diamond Matrix? (This would be extremely rare.)

Also, I know it bears no relevancy to the discussion whatsoever, but the cosmetic finish of these stones pleases me immensely.

Thanks for the input and making me aware of these.
 
pnsxyr said:
I spoke to Ben and started with purchasing the 2300 and 4000 Matrix stones to act as my finishing stones in conjunction with the 400 and 1000 EP aluminum oxide stones. As I noted previously, I generally sharpen before excessive dulling. I started with a M390 BM 707 that was a little below shaving sharp and the 2300 stone. I liked the feedback I got. After just a hand full of trailing passes with the 2300, I got the knife so sharp that I started to get a little bit concerned, and wound up not even using the 4000. Then I tried a Wustof paring knife with the 2300...again I got it sharp to a point where I felt a little uncomfortable. It sails through paracord. It cuts hair without the blade making contact with my skin if I run it along the base of the hair. Needless to say, I am extremely pleased to be able to achieve such results, and I am going to purchase the 250, 650, and 1100 as well, although I am guessing I will typically be starting at 1100 or 2300 as going coarser would just unnecessarily remove more steel.

Question - if I have the 250-4000 Diamond Matrix stones, and I wish to reprofile a blade or sharpen a super dull blade with some significant edge damage, should I use the 250 Diamond Matrix (with more than the 10-ish strokes, obviously), or start with the 220 EP stone and then move to the 250 Diamond Matrix? (This would be extremely rare.)

Also, I know it bears no relevancy to the discussion whatsoever, but the cosmetic finish of these stones pleases me immensely.

Thanks for the input and making me aware of these.
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I am also waiting for an answer? Same question
 
pnsxyr said:
The more rapid wear of the EP stones is something I find a bit frustrating, as leveling them is a bit of a messy pain. I would prefer a stone that wears slower, uses less water, and is easy to clean.
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Get an Atoma 140 or 400 plate, very quick for leveling stones (the SIC is kind of a pain and slow). CKTG diamond 140 & 400, then the glass 500 grit up to whatever you want is a good combo and hard to beat the polish the Shapton's leave. I normally finish on dense balsa with diamond paste then bare cased veg tan leather. One nice thing about EP, tons of good options when it comes to stones.

If you don't care about polishing and just want sharp then you don't need a vast array of stones for that.
 
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Jason B. Jason B. how do you condition the surface of your 16K Glass stone? Do you experience any of the random scratches that Diemaker reports? Also what do you think of the Shapton Pro 1500?

Diemaker said:
Then there are stones that are too fine to work with the steel being sharpened. I don't know what is causing the scratches but you can get to a point in the stone progression where the next finer stone leaves random deeper scratches. I know it is not contamination from my experiments, it just seems to be the limits of the bond. My solution is to move to a leather strop as it seems that the softer substrate for the abrasive is the way to avoid those scratches. My findings so far are Shapton Glass is good to 8k, the 16k is iffy and the 30k is useless.
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