Recommendation? Super Steel for Slaughter and Butchery?

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dtoro

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May 21, 2020
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My use of high end knives is limited to ritual slaughter. The profession tends to use mirror-finish stainless because of corrosion resistance and sharpenability, but I am wondering if it’s worth trying a super steel like cru-wear of s30v in order to benefit from longer edge retention with less sharpening down time. Kosher slaughter will not brook an edge compromised in any way, and we are required to check it every several minutes and sharpen multiple times a day during heavy use.

What super steels would you recommend I try? I’ve seen Cru-wear used in some highly recommended field-skinning knives, where stainless really doesn’t shine, in my experience.

I will probably have my own knife or knives copied by a custom knife maker in one or two steels of choice to try out, but I need to know I’m barking up the right tree. So a recommendation of a custom maker in the super steel of choice would also be welcome.
 
I am interested to hear what the experts say as well. I would imagine that many of the premium steels would work.
 
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I think Uddeholm Vanadis 4 Extra SuperClean is currently the king of steels for competition cutting, where edge stability after intense use is the key factor and competitors get dinged for edge deformation.
 
Uddeholm Vanadis 4 Extra SuperClean, I’ve never even heard of this. Boy, do I need an education...

I should probably add that I am only interested in slicing edge retention, not chopping.
 
I think that design trumps steel for highly specialized tasks. I would recommend checking out Silver Thorn Knife and Tool. Daniel makes very well regarded knives specifically for butchery. His main steel is O1, but I think he does occasionally use AEB-L, if a stainless steel is necessary.
 
I think it depends on your ritual practice. If you're a shochet practicing kosher slaughter then the use of super steel, while not prohibited, will likely lead you to check your edge less frequently, which leads to possibly slaughtering with an unkosher blade, which all somehow leads to mixed dancing. Personally I'm all for it and, when I am one day trained in the Jewish practice of shechita, I will almost certainly use a blade made from high hardness AEB-L for it's decent edge holding, stainlessness, and ease of sharpenability. I also like to be a contrarian from within my own ritual practice, so I don't care about the rules if the logic isn't there.

TLDR, I like AEB-L hrc 61-62 for a ritual slaughter knife over super steels.
 
There are volumes on the subject but it really comes down to how often you want to sharpen your kitchen knives and how gentle you know you will be with them. Most higher-end Japanese lines have very high-hardness steels, therefore need less sharpening but can be more easily chipped. German steels tend to be a little softer and more chip-forgiving but need more frequent sharpening. You can pay handsomely for premium knives in either category as both styles have "high-end" or "super steel". In practice, I think that you'd be best served by the best manufacturer / maker you can afford who will produce a blade that is consistent and predictable in quality and is durable. If it's a tool that you depend on for your livelihood and your faith, don't cut corners (pun intended). You need to learn exactly how it cuts, how it feels in your hand, how it handles when "wet", how long it cuts before needing a touch up, etc.
 
My suggestion would be to use a blade in LC200N steel.

The steel is as perfectly stainless as any steel gets. It'll give you edge retention far better than S30V, and pretty much equal to Cruwear. It's tough enough to graze some bones, and it's decently easy to sharpen. I've used my Spydiechef for prepping small hunks of meat and didn't have to worry about my blade at all. The most difficult part will be finding a suitable blade for your use in this steel, though.

Vanax Super Clean is a very comparable option, too. It has even better edge retention, but I can't comment on its toughness, and it's even more rare than LC200N.
 
I recommend CPM3v. It is very tough, so it wouldn’t have a tendency to chip out when you hit bone, plus it easily takes a nice keen edge and holds it for a decent amount of time.
 
patrickguignot said:
According to the tests on edge retention done by Larrin, that's not true.
The score for LC200N is 380 TCC.
The score for S30V is 568 TCC.
Click to expand...

I was referring to Pete's testing from Cedric and Ada
https://www.patreon.com/posts/full-steel-table-17366331
With LC200N at 372 cuts and S30V at 254, on average, over multiple tests.

However, you bring up a valuable point that simple edge retention tests are not the end all be all; that blade design and treatment is perhaps even more important, and even seemingly good tests don't always agree.

Thanks for pointing out my over generalization. I should refer to multiple sources before making such sweeping claims.
 
There is something to be said for using what is already proven. If I was going to have a knife made with the requirements needed that you have discussed AEBL or 13C would be the place I'd begin. If I wanted to try higher wear resistance I'd go up to CPM 154 and probably no higher on the wear resistance scale because of the needs of edge stability begin to diverge with the realities of what happens with really high wear steels. Cruwear is a great cutlery steel but I have no idea if it would be right for kosher work. Until it's tried any steel is a gamble and it depends on how much resources and time you are willing to use on a gamble. Whichever steel is used the right heat treatment and geometry needs to be used and that means some more resources for that. The needs are more exacting than required for regular skinning and meat prep knives if I'm not mistaken. I think finding the right maker would be the best bet. Not many have worked with the needs of the community doing the work.

I read a post from Sal G. on Spyderco years back on how much he learned about edges from working with a Kosher butcher. Finding someone who has already been through the learning curve will put you ahead of the game. Good luck.

Joe
 
So. Kosher slaughter.
You're not butchering then? Just cutting necks? If all you want is something that gets sickeningly sharp and is easy to keep that way, go for AEB-L or its Sandvik counterpart. If you're breaking down carcases too, then go for something like 3v. Have your maker send it to Peter's for heat treat and you can get Delta 3v, which would be interesting to say the least in a thin meat knife.
 
Also have a look at MBS-26 steel, a Japanese steel close in properties to AEB-L.
59-60 HRC, very stainless, good sharpenabily, and what i like especially is it's ability to take & hold very small edge angles.
The convex edge on my Spyderco K08 Santoku currently measures ~17,5 degrees inclusive, and i have a hunch it might even support ~15 degrees inclusive (with a higher polish than it has now)
 
I would say 3v/4v. I have a thin hollowground sword in 3v at it has done phenomenal at edge retention and not chipping. I just caught a roll when I hit the edge of a steel can
I threw the can up in the air to try to slice it and hit the thick edge and rolled it.

Then I put the can on a surface and tried to do the paper towel slice and only got part way in. Edge is still great with a little roll from hitting the thick edge

1UTVFSQ.jpg



I've also used it to cut nearly frozen chickens up and a rotisserie chicken
 
For super steels i would recommend Japanese HAP40 & 65-66 HRC.
No other steel that i know of takes & holds a high polished edge @ ~20 degrees inclusive in kitchen use.
I polish this steel up to 1.0 micron/~ 14000 grit with diamond compounds.
The steel isn't stainless, but it will not rust easy either (it forms a patina)
 
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