Survive GSO knives

[Benson X]

I have a few S!K knives purchased from the secondary market, so no wait time.

The quality of those knives convinced me to order a few "new" models direct from S!K. I knew prior to ordering that I will be waiting a while for them to show up. No biggie.

It's not like my life is on hold, pending the delivery of my Survive! Knives. I'm pretty sure I have a few other knives that will perform fine in the meantime. I can only assume that other "knife enthusiasts" who are waiting for the S!K orders also have more knives at their disposal.

It has been discussed many times. None of us run that business, nor can we control any of its operations - so all these discussions are a moot point, in my opinion.

The only real power you or I have as consumers is to make a purchase (on their terms) or not. It's pretty simple. I realize that it says "up to 90 days to ship" on their website, but if you research or do your homework before committing to hand your money over, you would learn those estimates are not very accurate. Again, this is no issue for me, nor do I feel anyone's life or well-being is going to be jeopardized because they had to wait for a knife to be shipped. I would challenge anyone to create a S!K Thread/Post telling how an extended wait time for a knife has adversely affected their life, in a tangible and practical way (not just being butt-hurt or angry).

Maybe this will establish some perspective. Over 500,000 people were willing to pay $1000 Deposit for a Tesla 3 since 3/2016, with no exact delivery time established: "According to its latest earnings report, Tesla holds $616 million in customer deposits. Most of that money comes from Model 3 reservation holders."

Those people are willing to wait for something good, regardless of timelines and projections. Of course, they too, have the option to cancel their order (deposit), but even those refunds on deposits are being delayed beyond the "published" timeframe(s). So those people who want a refund NOW, are lambasting Tesla via Social Media and other means to vent their frustrations, which is having absolutely no impact on their refund issuance date or improving the production schedule for the Model 3. It is merely giving those folks another outlet to vent and join a bandwagon of distaste with the other naysayers.

We live in an internet culture conditioned to "Instant Gratification" - email, IM, Amazon Prime, constant updates, live feeds, tracking via text etc. When something doesn't go as anticipated, you have a couple options - cancel the order or wait for it.

If it's your money you're concerned about - cancel the order and get a refund.

If you want a S! knife and don't want to wait, cancel the order and find one on the secondary market.

If you don't agree with their business practices or overly ambitious lead times (as stated on their site) - cancel your order and don't support them.

If you are willing to wait for a quality knife at a good price - wait, patiently, like so many of us are/have been doing.

 

[braillediver]

Maybe this will establish some perspective.

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒn.zi/; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator generates returns for older investors through revenue paid by new investors, rather than from legitimate business activities or financial trading. Operators of Ponzi schemes can be either individuals or corporations, and grab the attention of new investors by offering short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Companies that engage in Ponzi schemes focus all of their energy into attracting new clients to make investments. Ponzi schemes rely on a constant flow of new investments to continue to provide returns to older investors. When this flow runs out, the scheme falls apart

 

[pwrdbycotn]

I have a few S!K knives purchased from the secondary market, so no wait time.

The quality of those knives convinced me to order a few "new" models direct from S!K. I knew prior to ordering that I will be waiting a while for them to show up. No biggie.

It's not like my life is on hold, pending the delivery of my Survive! Knives. I'm pretty sure I have a few other knives that will perform fine in the meantime. I can only assume that other "knife enthusiasts" who are waiting for the S!K orders also have more knives at their disposal.

It has been discussed many times. None of us run that business, nor can we control any of its operations - so all these discussions are a moot point, in my opinion.

The only real power you or I have as consumers is to make a purchase (on their terms) or not. It's pretty simple. I realize that it says "up to 90 days to ship" on their website, but if you research or do your homework before committing to hand your money over, you would learn those estimates are not very accurate. Again, this is no issue for me, nor do I feel anyone's life or well-being is going to be jeopardized because they had to wait for a knife to be shipped. I would challenge anyone to create a S!K Thread/Post telling how an extended wait time for a knife has adversely affected their life, in a tangible and practical way (not just being butt-hurt or angry).

Maybe this will establish some perspective. Over 500,000 people were willing to pay $1000 Deposit for a Tesla 3 since 3/2016, with no exact delivery time established: "According to its latest earnings report, Tesla holds $616 million in customer deposits. Most of that money comes from Model 3 reservation holders."

Those people are willing to wait for something good, regardless of timelines and projections. Of course, they too, have the option to cancel their order (deposit), but even those refunds on deposits are being delayed beyond the "published" timeframe(s). So those people who want a refund NOW, are lambasting Tesla via Social Media and other means to vent their frustrations, which is having absolutely no impact on their refund issuance date or improving the production schedule for the Model 3. It is merely giving those folks another outlet to vent and join a bandwagon of distaste with the other naysayers.

We live in an internet culture conditioned to "Instant Gratification" - email, IM, Amazon Prime, constant updates, live feeds, tracking via text etc. When something doesn't go as anticipated, you have a couple options - cancel the order or wait for it.

If it's your money you're concerned about - cancel the order and get a refund.

If you want a S! knife and don't want to wait, cancel the order and find one on the secondary market.

If you don't agree with their business practices or overly ambitious lead times (as stated on their site) - cancel your order and don't support them.

If you are willing to wait for a quality knife at a good price - wait, patiently, like so many of us are/have been doing.

Using Tesla is a terrible example. You do realize that they are one of the most heavily subsidized companies in the US and that, without those subsidies, the price of their electric crap-cars would be so high that nobody would buy them, right? Quite literally, the American taxpayers are paying for a huge percentage of those cars.

 

[Benson X]

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒn.zi/; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator generates returns for older investors through revenue paid by new investors, rather than from legitimate business activities or financial trading. Operators of Ponzi schemes can be either individuals or corporations, and grab the attention of new investors by offering short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Companies that engage in Ponzi schemes focus all of their energy into attracting new clients to make investments. Ponzi schemes rely on a constant flow of new investments to continue to provide returns to older investors. When this flow runs out, the scheme falls apart

We're talking about consumer goods, not investments.

Even a failed Kickstarter campaign would have been a better contrast. Look up Zano and then cite some better comparisons.

The big distinguishing difference is this - Guy and S!K have (publicly) acknowledged the need to improve their business in order to meet the growing consumer demand and improve production schedules. Their plans are already underway and in effect.

Also, the information and realistic expectations regarding past, present, and future S!K orders is already there, in abundance. Anyone can read it or find it - and as any smart consumer should do, they should research a company before spending $200+ on their product. I know I did, and I gave them my money knowing full well I will be waiting.

I personally feel that these threads could be avoided if S!K would simply remove any specific delivery date-range (up to 90 days). The rest of the information is already there: production schedules, news/updates, existing threads/rants/experiences etc.

Using Tesla is a terrible example. You do realize that they are one of the most heavily subsidized companies in the US and that, without those subsidies, the price of their electric crap-cars would be so high that nobody would buy them, right? Quite literally, the American taxpayers are paying for a huge percentage of those cars.

I wasn't comparing Tesla to S!K as a business model, or how they are generating capital. I was using their "Pay $1000 deposit and wait" scenario as a realistic example. With Tesla coming under recent scrutiny for deposit refunds taking longer than published, and compare that to S!K orders taking longer than published; I think the two scenarios are a great comparison.

But, again this is my opinion, as yours is yours. I don't like these counter-productive threads, finger pointing games and shoulda/coulda/woulda opinions. I'm content waiting for my knives and not complaining about it.

KCCO

 

[pwrdbycotn]

We're talking about consumer goods, not investments.

Even a failed Kickstarter campaign would have been a better contrast. Look up Zano and then cite some better comparisons.

The big distinguishing difference is this - Guy and S!K have (publicly) acknowledged the need to improve their business in order to meet the growing consumer demand and improve production schedules. Their plans are already underway and in effect.

Also, the information and realistic expectations regarding past, present, and future S!K orders is already there, in abundance. Anyone can read it or find it - and as any smart consumer should do, they should research a company before spending $200+ on their product. I know I did, and I gave them my money knowing full well I will be waiting.

I personally feel that these threads could be avoided if S!K would simply remove any specific delivery date-range (up to 90 days). The rest of the information is already there: production schedules, news/updates, existing threads/rants/experiences etc.



I wasn't comparing Tesla to S!K as a business model, or how they are generating capital. I was using their "Pay $1000 deposit and wait" scenario as a realistic example. With Tesla coming under recent scrutiny for deposit refunds taking longer than published, and compare that to S!K orders taking longer than published; I think the two scenarios are a great comparison.

But, again this is my opinion, as yours is yours. I don't like these counter-productive threads, finger pointing games and shoulda/coulda/woulda opinions. I'm content waiting for my knives and not complaining about it.

KCCO

I don't get why you're content waiting for an inferior product from incompetent people. Carothers beats S! about the head and shoulders with a buggy whip. Whatever blows your skirt up.

 

[JJ_Colt45]

I personally don't agree with such prolonged waits without being up front and realistic about it to buyers ...

That being said I do own a SK GS0 5.1 and its a very high quality knife.

And I also think the Carothers are amazing knives ... and I would love to have one ... but I don't have the time free to try to beat the rush in 30 second sales to get one.

So for me I'm not thrilled with either sales procedures but it is what it is and nothing I can do but look elsewhere if I can't get a product I want by ordering it when I can have the time and still get it in a time frame I don't stress over.

I guess what I'm saying everyone has different tastes and philosophies ... I find nothing productive about arguing or complaining over things out of my control. And beating a dead horse.

I think both make a very high quality knife and I hope in the future both can offer easier processes for consumers that really want their products.

 

[Benson X]

I don't get why you're content waiting for an inferior product from incompetent people. Carothers beats S! about the head and shoulders with a buggy whip. Whatever blows your skirt up.

You don't need to get my thought process or even question it. You know what they say about opinions being like...well, you know.

I agree that CPK makes excellent knives, I have a few myself with more coming; their production process, quality, and marketing/retail strategy is fantastic (and their Friday Sales are fun as hell!). It works effectively and keeps them (Nathan, Jo, Mark, and the rest) busy and fed without losing their sanity.

BUT...

Imagine, if you will (and I don't like hypothetical scenarios), if CPK were to launch a webstore, just like S!K. An open market to anyone with internet, not just the niche collective here on BF. Pre-orders for all their models, paid in full, in advance. I guarantee, even with just the cult following they've created on this forum, that they would up to their ears in orders that would take 1 year+ to fulfill: 100+ Shivs, 100+ EDCs, 100+ LCs, 100+ FKs etc. And that's a low-end assumption. I imagine the true number of orders would be much higher if opened up to everyone.

Since CPK is not doing that, and releasing small-batch sales, small-batch pre-orders, retiring patterns and releasing new protoypes, they keep us frothing at the mouth for MORE - there will always be that guaranteed demand and opportunity. Just in much lower quantity.

All this to say - yes CPK makes knives that are just as good, if not better than S!K. They have a process that works for them and they do not plan on changing that process to mass-produce their products.

S!K has about the same amount of employees as CPK (maybe a few more?), utilizes the same heat treatment (PHT) and similar hand-finishing process. They have more knife models available and more "custom" choices (steel, scales, Kydex) per model. Add to this the hundreds of orders already placed or pre-ordered and do you really need to question - "Why have I been waiting 90+ days for my knife?"

 

[pwrdbycotn]

I personally don't agree with such prolonged waits without being up front and realistic about it to buyers ...

That being said I do own a SK GS0 5.1 and its a very high quality knife.

And I also think the Carothers are amazing knives ... and I would love to have one ... but I don't have the time free to try to beat the rush in 30 second sales to get one.

So for me I'm not thrilled with either sales procedures but it is what it is and nothing I can do but look elsewhere if I can't get a product I want by ordering it when I can have the time and still get it in a time frame I don't stress over.

I guess what I'm saying everyone has different tastes and philosophies ... I find nothing productive about arguing or complaining over things out of my control. And beating a dead horse.

I think both make a very high quality knife and I hope in the future both can offer easier processes for consumers that really want their products.

Carothers has been offering pre-sales in an effort to give those who aren't fast enough, or can't access bladeforums on Friday sales an opportunity to own their knives. So there really is no excuse when it comes to Carothers. So again, I can't possibly understand why anyone would wait on an inferior product from an incompetent bunch of morons, like S!k, instead of getting the best. The only way companies change their ways is out of necessity. As long as enough customers continue to turn a blind eye to their idiotic practices, they will continue to act this way. Do they even cut their own blades, grind the blades, or shape the handles, or are they still just slow when it comes to using a screwdriver? As far as I know, they've always been to stupid to even use a screwdriver in a time-efficient way because they literally don't make any part of the knife.

 

[Benson X]

...and with that articulate point of view, I bid you adieu.

There's better ways to spend a Sunday than arguing on the internet.

 

[pwrdbycotn]

You don't need to get my thought process or even question it. You know what they say about opinions being like...well, you know.

I agree that CPK makes excellent knives, I have a few myself with more coming; their production process, quality, and marketing/retail strategy is fantastic (and their Friday Sales are fun as hell!). It works effectively and keeps them (Nathan, Jo, Mark, and the rest) busy and fed without losing their sanity.

BUT...

Imagine, if you will (and I don't like hypothetical scenarios), if CPK were to launch a webstore, just like S!K. An open market to anyone with internet, not just the niche collective here on BF. Pre-orders for all their models, paid in full, in advance. I guarantee, even with just the cult following they've created on this forum, that they would up to their ears in orders that would take 1 year+ to fulfill: 100+ Shivs, 100+ EDCs, 100+ LCs, 100+ FKs etc. And that's a low-end assumption. I imagine the true number of orders would be much higher if opened up to everyone.

Since CPK is not doing that, and releasing small-batch sales, small-batch pre-orders, retiring patterns and releasing new protoypes, they keep us frothing at the mouth for MORE - there will always be that guaranteed demand and opportunity. Just in much lower quantity.

All this to say - yes CPK makes knives that are just as good, if not better than S!K. They have a process that works for them and they do not plan on changing that process to mass-produce their products.

S!K has about the same amount of employees as CPK (maybe a few more?), utilizes the same heat treatment (PHT) and similar hand-finishing process. They have more knife models available and more "custom" choices (steel, scales, Kydex) per model. Add to this the hundreds of orders already placed or pre-ordered and do you really need to question - "Why have I been waiting 90+ days for my knife?"

First of all, I don't believe Nathan and Jo would open the market up to orders and require payment in full at the time of ordering. They have done that once on a pre-order, and only once, and shut it off when the number of orders got to where they wanted them to be. IF Carothers were to open a web-store and take orders, I believe they would be honest enough to give a fairly accurate lead time, instead of saying 90 days when they really mean 900 days, such as survive. Not only that, Nathan actually makes the knives that he sells. Unless I'm not aware of changes at survive, they don't make squat. They don't cut the blades, they dont grind them, they dont make the scales. They simply sharpen the blades and tighten the screws on the scales, and somehow manage to be completely incompetent when it comes to doing that.
CPK has never made anything "just as good" as survive. It has always been better, and they actually make it themselves.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I'm surprised so many fans of Survive seem to be acting as though paying the full amount up front and then waiting for totally undisclosed amounts of time is somehow normal in either the knife industry, or any other industry I can think of, really. I honestly don't know of any other business that operates in that fashion. Even the Tesla comparison falls awfully flat, as the $1000 is a small fraction of the price of the car.

As I've mentioned before, small businesses go under all the time. I hope that Survive doesn't, but if they are put in a position where they're forced to declare bankruptcy, anyone waiting will be out both their money and their knife. Given the way the company has been run, I'm honestly bewildered why folks think that's an acceptable risk to take.

 

[JJ_Colt45]

Carothers has been offering pre-sales in an effort to give those who aren't fast enough, or can't access bladeforums on Friday sales an opportunity to own their knives. So there really is no excuse when it comes to Carothers. So again, I can't possibly understand why anyone would wait on an inferior product from an incompetent bunch of morons, like S!k, instead of getting the best. The only way companies change their ways is out of necessity. As long as enough customers continue to turn a blind eye to their idiotic practices, they will continue to act this way. Do they even cut their own blades, grind the blades, or shape the handles, or are they still just slow when it comes to using a screwdriver? As far as I know, they've always been to stupid to even use a screwdriver in a time-efficient way because they literally don't make any part of the knife.

Well I just recently asked if there was a way I could get a Carothers other then the mad rush sales ... and every response I got was no unless you find one on the Secondary market so take that for whatever its worth.

I think there are much better options for sales ... in both cases ... but as I said it's not my place to try to tell anyone how to run their business ... all I can do is control my own decisions.

And I find it a bit overboard to call others names and condem a product that is a quaility product because you don't like how the business is run or because you prefer another over it.

That's your right to chose what you like ... but you aren't doing yourself or anyone a favor making a fool of yourself with attitude.

If you don't like the product ... don't buy it ... but allow others their right to chose just as you have yours. And theres no need for name calling or constant insults in an adult conversation even with differing views. It accomplishes nothing.

 

[palonej]

I can understand some of the points the fans make. The one I cannot swallow is how do you do business with liars??
If I am told, UP FRONT, that they will be holding my money for more than 2 years, full payment, before I get my knife, I can make a decision.
That's not what happens. And when that doesn't happen, people get pissed, rightly so.
True, lives aren't affected, but people still get pissed.

 

[pwrdbycotn]

Well I just recently asked if there was a way I could get a Carothers other then the mad rush sales ... and every response I got was no unless you find one on the Secondary market so take that for whatever its worth.

I think there are much better options for sales ... in both cases ... but as I said it's not my place to try to tell anyone how to run their business ... all I can do is control my own decisions.

And I find it a bit overboard to call others names and condem a product that is a quaility product because you don't like how the business is run or because you prefer another over it.

That's your right to chose what you like ... but you aren't doing yourself or anyone a favor making a fool of yourself with attitude.

If you don't like the product ... don't buy it ... but allow others their right to chose just as you have yours. And theres no need for name calling or constant insults in an adult conversation even with differing views. It accomplishes nothing.

Ok, so what do you call it when a company requires payment in full up front, doesn't actually make anything, is slow as can possibly be using a screwdriver, outwardly lies to their customers about wait times, and charges 10% "restocking fee" if you get tired of waiting on them? If you want to be polite and pat them on the head and tell them they're doing a job, then go ahead. I'll call it like it is and say that they have idiot business practices and also say that they're too stupid to use a screwdriver in an efficient manner. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but I think anyone willing to put up with the bs that survive spews out is actually the one making a fool of themself.

 

[JJ_Colt45]

You haven't hurt my feelings at all ... just as neither Survive or Carothers sales practices hurt my feelings or upset me to the point of calling people stupid idiots ... or saying someone with a gift of making a high quality knife can't turn a screwdriver.

That''s my whole point ... I think both companies produce amazing products and I hope both have great success ... and grow their business.

And I hope someday I will get the opportunity to own a Carothers just as I found a Survive.

But arguing the point or putting down everyone that wants a brand of knife just because you don't like the product is a bit overboard.

People are free to spend their money however they wish ... including you ...

And as much as I'd love to be able to buy a Carothers at this time I'm not able to spend the time in rush sales to get one ... but that doesn't make me think any less of either of them or their choices ... or think in anyway their knives are inferior ... I think both make some of the best knives coming out right now.

I think Nathan has a real gift and hope they keep growing ... just as I believe Guy makes a very nice knife and wish them the best.

And wait times ... I stated before I wish they would be a bit more realistic but some custom makers take years to get and people still covet those ... and I wish I could place an order for a Carothers but for now that option isn't in the cards from all I've asked ... so there it is ... to each their own.

 

[JohnWE]

I'm surprised so many fans of Survive seem to be acting as though paying the full amount up front and then waiting for totally undisclosed amounts of time is somehow normal in either the knife industry, or any other industry I can think of, really. I honestly don't know of any other business that operates in that fashion. Even the Tesla comparison falls awfully flat, as the $1000 is a small fraction of the price of the car.

As I've mentioned before, small businesses go under all the time. I hope that Survive doesn't, but if they are put in a position where they're forced to declare bankruptcy, anyone waiting will be out both their money and their knife. Given the way the company has been run, I'm honestly bewildered why folks think that's an acceptable risk to take.

Tesla has also started delivering the vehicles that they took deposits on, earlier than promised.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

You haven't hurt my feelings at all ... just as neither Survive or Carothers sales practices hurt my feelings or upset me to the point of calling people stupid idiots ... or saying someone with a gift of making a high quality knife can't turn a screwdriver.

That''s my whole point ... I think both companies produce amazing products and I hope both have great success ... and grow their business.

And I hope someday I will get the opportunity to own a Carothers just as I found a Survive.

But arguing the point or putting down everyone that wants a brand of knife just because you don't like the product is a bit overboard.

People are free to spend their money however they wish ... including you ...

And as much as I'd love to be able to buy a Carothers at this time I'm not able to spend the time in rush sales to get one ... but that doesn't make me think any less of either of them or their choices ... or think in anyway their knives are inferior ... I think both make some of the best knives coming out right now.

I think Nathan has a real gift and hope they keep growing ... just as I believe Guy makes a very nice knife and wish them the best.

And wait times ... I stated before I wish they would be a bit more realistic but some custom makers take years to get and people still covet those ... and I wish I could place an order for a Carothers but for now that option isn't in the cards from all I've asked ... so there it is ... to each their own.

The custom makers you mention almost never demand upfront payment and are generally completely honest about the expected wait time. There are certainly exceptions to that, and many, many of those exceptions have been called out over in GB&U as scammers or frauds. Again, it is simply not a comparison that passes the smell test.

 

[benchwarmer380]

It has been discussed many times. None of us run that business, nor can we control any of its operations - so all these discussions are a moot point, in my opinion.

The only real power you or I have as consumers is to make a purchase (on their terms) or not. It's pretty simple. I realize that it says "up to 90 days to ship" on their website, but if you research or do your homework before committing to hand your money over, you would learn those estimates are not very accurate. Again, this is no issue for me, nor do I feel anyone's life or well-being is going to be jeopardized because they had to wait for a knife to be shipped. I would challenge anyone to create a S!K Thread/Post telling how an extended wait time for a knife has adversely affected their life, in a tangible and practical way (not just being butt-hurt or angry).

All due respect, I disagree about these discussions being moot. Without discussions like these there would be nothing for others to research.

I do also agree that it's highly unlikely that anyone went bankrupt or had their house foreclosed due to a knife preorder. Yet, when a promised turnaround time goes from a few months into years, it graduates from butt hurt to a fair complaint.

 

[JJ_Colt45]

There are many high dollar custom makers that require a deposit that is still more then the total people put out for the Survive ... and some of those are non refundable.

Ive said that I agree I think there should be a more realistic timeline but to say the product is terrible or the person making them is incapable of using a screwdriver ... those are a bit overboard and to me just someone bitter of a fan of another product putting one down.

Ive handle both and honestly it would just be personal preference in my eyes they are both very nice knives. And I don't have a preference one over the other ...

 

[pwrdbycotn]

There are many high dollar custom makers that require a deposit that is still more then the total people put out for the Survive ... and some of those are non refundable.

Ive said that I agree I think there should be a more realistic timeline but to say the product is terrible or the person making them is incapable of using a screwdriver ... those are a bit overboard and to me just someone bitter of a fan of another product putting one down.

Ive handle both and honestly it would just be personal preference in my eyes they are both very nice knives. And I don't have a preference one over the other ...

The deposit put on a custom, whether it is more than the entire cost of a survive or not, is just a small percentage of the total price and the product is delivered on time, or at least relatively so. So to mention that deposit cost is like comparing apples to shoe strings.

I said the product was inferior, and I stand behind that claim, but let me clarify. If Carothers knives and survive knives were compared in a vacuum, I would say they are on par with each other in materials and fit and finish. However, when I look for a product to buy, be it a knife, dishwasher, television, or whatever, I will not buy a product, no matter how nice it may be, if I can't put faith in the company that makes the products. No matter what item you want to talk about, there are always going to be issues with a small percentage of them, and I have to be able to trust the company to take care of those issues. I may just need parts or I may need to send the product back for repair, or any number of other scenarios. The issue with survive, is they can't even provide refunds in a timely manner. Their subforum is a complete disaster littered with thread after thread of people begging for a refund that have wait day, weeks or even months. It takes about 10 seconds to issue a refund, and they can't even do that properly, and the reason is because they're broke and they have to rob Peter to pay Paul.
I also stand behind my comment about them not being able to use a screwdriver in an efficient way. They don't make any part of the knife! All they do, from my understanding, is do the sharpening, attach the scales, and do some final buff and fluff. They are either completely incompetent, incredibly stupid, or they barely put in any hours working on getting knives finished. My guess is all the above applies. If that hurts your feelings or you think I'm being mean, that's ok. Sometimes it's rude awakenings that get us going the most.