Survive! Knives Forum Closed - What Changed?

[shinyedges]

Sounds like some great customer service. You're not personally wronged when someone in a community operates a scam, unless there's a scam. Who has asked for a refund, and not gotten it? Pay for it and wait, or don't. If they violate that I'll be 100% behind what you're saying.

What do you call intentional misleading of customers? The " we didn't know our wait times would be 3+ years despite the fact we keep making knives ahead of the knives we originally sold to help get us started" excuse does it for you?

I'd call intentional misleading of delivery time to the effect of holding onto peoples money a scam. Basically a non interest loan.


Sure, people could have got their money back, BUT they were consistently strung along thinking their knife was next to made. Nowhere did survive! states it would take YEARS.


Call it what you want. We'll call it a scam.

 

[shinyedges]

Note the word that makes what they did/do a "scam" is deceptive.

 

[grogimus]

What do you call intentional misleading of customers? The " we didn't know our wait times would be 3+ years despite the fact we keep making knives ahead of the knives we originally sold to help get us started" excuse does it for you?

I'd call intentional misleading of delivery time to the effect of holding onto peoples money a scam. Basically a non interest loan.


Sure, people could have got their money back, BUT they were consistently strung along thinking their knife was next to made. Nowhere did survive! states it would take YEARS.


Call it what you want. We'll call it a scam.

You didn't answer a thing I said. Did you ask for a refund and not get it?

 

[shinyedges]

You didn't answer a thing I said. Did you ask for a refund and not get it?

Does intentional misleading aka being deceptive not make it a scam?

Like I said, they strung people along. For YEARS.

How can you be blind to that? You like the company that much? Their knives are so ungodly amazing out of this world good it blinds you?!?

Please. I'm dying to know.



If they said upfront it will take 3+ years how many people would have paid them???? We'll never know because they LIED.

 

[craytab]

Sounds like some great customer service. You're not personally wronged when someone in a community operates a scam, unless there's a scam. Who has asked for a refund, and not gotten it? Pay for it and wait, or don't. If they violate that I'll be 100% behind what you're saying.

Welp, they got the boot here for doing what I'm saying. Your argument is a common one. They don't exist here as a manufacturer because of their scam. That was decided on. Having them here makes this place look bad. Arguing otherwise is pointless.

 

[craytab]

You didn't answer a thing I said. Did you ask for a refund and not get it?

That does not matter at all.

 

[Quiet]

Does intentional misleading aka being deceptive not make it a scam?

Like I said, they strung people along. For YEARS.

How can you be blind to that? You like the company that much? Their knives are so ungodly amazing out of this world good it blinds you?!?

Please. I'm dying to know.



If they said upfront it will take 3+ years how many people would have paid them???? We'll never know because they LIED.

This is clearly what's going on here. "If S?K doesn't owe YOU money, then you can't call them scammers." To that I say, ha, the hell we can't.

 

[Chariotz4]

You didn't answer a thing I said. Did you ask for a refund and not get it?

I think you're kinda missing the point shinyedges is trying to make, not that I really want to put words in their mouth.

My only knowledge of this situation is more or less this and a couple of other similarly themed threads, and having said that, it does look like most, if not all who have asked for a refund have received one.

However, if you've paid for a product and are constantly being updated/assured that "it's almost ready" or "it's making it's way out the door after it's ____." Why would you be actively looking for a refund until such an amount of time has passed that you decide that "maybe its actually nowhere close to being ready and maybe I'm being played/strung along?"

The best analogy I can think of is being strung along by a guy or a gal. They keep hinting at the possibility of a relationship while you buy them dinners, clothes, movie nights and knick knacks, but nothing really ever moves forward. Sure, you could end it at anytime, but what incentive do you have to if they have you thinking that right around the corner is the next step forward in the "relationship"?

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

You didn't answer a thing I said. Did you ask for a refund and not get it?

I have no dog in this fight, never having donated funds to S!K, but, if they do not have documented agreements from their customers who waited more than 30 days past the initial promised delivery time, agreeing to the extended wait, and if they then did not automatically refund those payments, even without being asked for a refund, then, according to the page linked earlier, they are in violation of law. If that is the case, being called scammers is probably the least of their worries. It does seem that they scammed people, though, even if that wasn't their original intent. They "sold" pre-orders, over promised and underdelivered on wait times, and instead of using the knives that were being produced to fill those orders, "found defects" and sold them again as seconds, thirds, etcetera, seemingly to keep the income flowing. Smells like a scam to me.

 

[ndmiller]

Does intentional misleading aka being deceptive not make it a scam?

Like I said, they strung people along. For YEARS.

How can you be blind to that? You like the company that much? Their knives are so ungodly amazing out of this world good it blinds you?!?

Please. I'm dying to know.



If they said upfront it will take 3+ years how many people would have paid them???? We'll never know because they LIED.

I think you are completely off here on the intentional misleading and scaming phrase, giving them 100% more credit than they deserve. They simply got in over the head and screwed the pooch on communication and the decision to stop taking orders for years, believing their own hype. This is more incompetence than some diabolical scheme to defraud people. I say that because they continue to deliver knives and/or issue refunds. Not promptly or even close to on time, but they are in fact delivering knives and giving refunds.

The fact people waited years for a production knife is also customers believing in the hype, should have asked for refunds years ago.

Noah

 

[scout1sg]

Concerning that FTC ruling, sort of wonder if that was the reasoning they came out with the $25 down payment option when they came out with their SK line, I believe (can't quite remember w/o doing some research) they even slipped some sort of wording that if you decide to forego the order they can keep the money. Might have some of that twisted but I believe they had some wording in that nature.

 

[shinyedges]

I think you are completely off here on the intentional misleading and scaming phrase, giving them 100% more credit than they deserve. They simply got in over the head and screwed the pooch on communication and the decision to stop taking orders for years, believing their own hype. This is more incompetence than some diabolical scheme to defraud people. I say that because they continue to deliver knives and/or issue refunds. Not promptly or even close to on time, but they are in fact delivering knives and giving refunds.

The fact people waited years for a production knife is also customers believing in the hype, should have asked for refunds years ago.

Noah

I don't know whether they intended to scam people or not in the beginning. What I do know is at some point they did KNOW their times were going to be years late and they continued to sell knives that didn't exist knowing full well how back logged they were. At some point it BECAME a scam.

Unless your saying that survive! was some how oblivious to the fact they kept making knives ahead of their paid upfront customers who helped get their company started? Is that what you're suggesting, that survive! didn't know at ANY point what they were doing?

 

[Andy the Aussie]

The only way to have saved credibility and reputation, in my view, would have been to have acknowledged that the deliveries could not be met, refunded the "pre-order" and all the other various plays on words that were used and then seek and alternate and more contemporary line of credit (bank loan/loan shark/sell out to another whatever) and start offering knives that are ready for delivery, initially with a standard no options line (limited choice of handle colours maybe), something that would allow an order to be placed, paid for and shipped within 7 days. I suspect they would sell all that they could make. Holding money for YEARS and with no other apparent legitimate income stream (by this I do believe it is not legitimate to make and sell "seconds" etc or supply other collaborations while original paying customers and moved back in the line) while you string those customers, or "investors" as they have sometimes been called, along with updates that can really only be seen as obfuscation will sour even the future market for them.

 

[benchwarmer380]

You didn't answer a thing I said. Did you ask for a refund and not get it?

You are making a fair point. Of all the refund request threads I have seen and recall, all have been honored. If that is not the case, then I urge whoever is in that position to come forward with their story.

However, that fair point also means diddly squat in their defense. Doing what you are supposed to do does not give you brownie points that out weight the bad, especially when the bad has dragged on and not changed in years.

You are essentially saying that while they may not be that great at business, heck, at least they're not thieves. Not a great selling point considering all the options that are darn good or great all around.

 

[scout1sg]

Well as I mentioned the other day, wanted to share what feedback I have received and still waiting for hopefully more (read from bottom up):

Thu 8/9/2018, 5:58 PM
SURVIVE! LLC

That is pretty much voiced (same language) in the Friday updates but for the past several months there has been no real update on the 3.5s, still handle issues. I thought I had already seen some images that were posted on Instagram depicting handle examples for the 3.5. As far as the 5.1 is concerned I see no end in sight so may likely pull the plug on that one. I assume the 4.1 Starters have been completed and shipped out now but the progress to this point for Pre-orders and Pre-Sales has been almost non-existent, why after this long you cannot forecast a delivery time? At this rate am I looking into another year or longer for my 2016 order? I'm really curious to see if these SK Series are going to start rolling out, if connected with Millit is Millit the one that can start providing a better timeline? I can give all of this a little more time but if I don't see anything by this fall I may very well pull all the orders.
JM
From: SURVIVE! LLC <Info@SurviveKnives.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 3:13 PM
To: 'james mortimer'
Subject: RE: The SURVIVE! 1st Friday Production Update is Here!

Hi James,


The following is an update for your current open SURVIVE! Orders.


Order #4788 – GSO-3.5 (starter preorder) – We have the blades for this model in-house. Some handle materials have arrived and are being added to the machining schedule. After we have sample sets of handles, sheath production can get setup. With these materials finishing up, we are adding stacks of GSO-3.5 blades to the surface finishing schedule. Once we receive all of the materials for the GSO-3.5, (handles, sheaths, fasteners), we will have blades ready to go so the preorders can start shipping!


Order #8925 – GSO-5.1 (preorder) – The GSO-5.1 is still waiting to start production behind quite a few other models. It is still going to be several months before this model can begin production.


Order #9717 – GSO-4.1 (presale) – We have all of the materials for the GSO-4.1 and are working to complete the preorders now. We are currently working on shipping GSO-4.1 preorders up to, and including, August 2015. Your order, being a presale order, will be shipped after all of the GSO-4.1 preorders have been fulfilled. I do not have an estimated shipping date for this order at this time.


Order #11476 – SK-6 (preorder) – The files for this model have been finalized and the steel sheets are heading to the water jet. Keep an eye on our Production Schedule page to follow this model through the production process.


Sign up for our SURVIVE! Newsletter to receive our 1st Friday Production Updates. Let me know if you have any questions.


Thank you,

Jordyn


SURVIVE! newsletter and check out the Production Schedule for regular updates!


From: james mortimer <mortimer19d@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 2:31 PM
To: SURVIVE! <info@surviveknives.com>
Subject: Re: The SURVIVE! 1st Friday Production Update is Here!



Hello and to whom this concerns,

I shouldn't have been totally surprised to see that Bladeforums has suspended/closed the Survive sub forum but to some extend I am concerned as I'm sure many other customers that are still awaiting orders as well. To some degree and extend I've defended SKs in the subforum (mainly due to the fact of the quality product) and have expressed great patience with my orders that are extending into nearly 4 years (GSO 3.5), a couple others (4.1 and a 5.1) well over 2 years now and finally an SK6 from last year. I am however more cautious of the delayed status and have seen virtually no new informed news on the status of the 3.5 series. I was told by Jordyn early this year that my Pre-Order 4.1 from 2016 was in house from the old grinder but obviously well behind orders from 2015 (completion of Starters and numerous Pre-Sales), as far as the 5.1 is concerned I see no foreseeable estimate (not that there really was one). I would like some sort of feedback on the status of these orders or I might have to reluctantly request a refund on all orders placed.

Thanks,

Jim Mortimer Jr.

 

[craytab]

I think you are completely off here on the intentional misleading and scaming phrase, giving them 100% more credit than they deserve. They simply got in over the head and screwed the pooch on communication and the decision to stop taking orders for years, believing their own hype. This is more incompetence than some diabolical scheme to defraud people. I say that because they continue to deliver knives and/or issue refunds. Not promptly or even close to on time, but they are in fact delivering knives and giving refunds.

The fact people waited years for a production knife is also customers believing in the hype, should have asked for refunds years ago.

Noah

The problem is more severe than simply getting over their head. They sell stuff before current customers are made whole, by years. They don't tell the truth in their promises, and have done so constantly. The restocking fees....I could go on. These people have known they have issues for over four years and have not done an actual thing about it. Ignorance turns to negligence turns into a scam over years. They were given the advice to reform long ago. They chose not to and continued their same ways. It turns into a scam.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Sounds like some great customer service. You're not personally wronged when someone in a community operates a scam, unless there's a scam. Who has asked for a refund, and not gotten it? Pay for it and wait, or don't. If they violate that I'll be 100% behind what you're saying.

It seems like you may have missed my post, so I'll reiterate. Their business practices aren't just bad, they're illegal, per the link I posted. I don't see how that can be called anything but a scam.

Here's the other point, even if they refund their customers in full after 3 years the customers have still lost money through inflation.

 

[grogimus]

You are making a fair point. Of all the refund request threads i have seen and recall, all have been honored. If that is not the case, then i urge whoever is in that position to come forward with their story.

However, that fair point also means diddly squat in their defense. Doing what you are supposed to do does not give you brownie points that out weight the bad, especially when the bad has dragged on and not changes in years.

You are essentially saying that while they may not be that great at business, heck, at least they're not thieves. Not a great selling point considering all the options that are great or darn good all around.

I personally can't find a better knife than the 4.1. Their business of providing knives sucks. I want them, and I can't get them. Life sucks, I'll get a helmet. I dunno squat about business, good thing we're on a knife forum. But they've been called thieves and scammers and that's a lie. They suck seriously at letting you know when you'll get your knife.. but you will get it! And if you don't like the wait.. get a refund, take your blood pressure down and your business elsewhere.

 

[shinyedges]

I personally can't find a better knife than the 4.1. Their business of providing knives sucks. I want them, and I can't get them. Life sucks, I'll get a helmet. I dunno squat about business, good thing we're on a knife forum. But they've been called thieves and scammers and that's a lie. They suck seriously at letting you know when you'll get your knife.. but you will get it! And if you don't like the wait.. get a refund, take your blood pressure down and your business elsewhere.

Now you're a liar. Throw your reputation to the wind to defend them? Check.

 

[grogimus]

Now you're a liar. Throw your reputation to the wind to defend them? Check.

I don't have a reputation, but the ad hominem nonsense is duly noted.