Sword handle construction advice

Richard338

Richard338

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May 3, 2005
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I just received a 36" x 2" x 0.25" piece of CPM 3V and want to make the largest possible sword.
In the past for daggers I have had a short hidden tang switching to threaded rod going into a heavy pommel. Covered with a wooden handle and wire wrap, plenty of epoxy etc, it seemed pretty strong.

If I did this for a sword, let's say 33" blade, 3" tang, then 5" more of threaded rod going into a heavy pommel, does anyone think it will fail under some reasonably vigorous chopping?
(again covered by wood, wire wrap, epoxy etc)

Thanks.
 
I'm not really a fan of 2 piece or welded tangs. Not that I've seen that many fail, but when one does fail, it can be very bad. The best method would be to draw out the end of steel into the full tang and thread it. Next best with a drawn tang would be peening the tang into a reverse tapered pommel. I understand forging 3V is "unpleasant", but you would lose a lot of potential blade length making a full tang via stock removal...

If you really want to have just 3 or 4" in the tang on your blade, I'd suggest adapting the "pinned tang attachment" Jesse Belsky describes on his website for aluminum blades.

There's a lot of leverage working in a long sword blade, so big threads, big pins. Don't cheap out at the tang and pommel joint. And don't think that just because your steel is only 1/4" thick that you can't thread it with 5/16 or 3/8" threads. If you forge the tang, you can make it round and the right size, if you are doing stock removal, put the right radius on the edges, and you can thread over/across the flats. Using a die with 6 cutters rather than 3 or 4 is the secret.
 
I appreciate the detailed reply. I'm not set up for forging. I looked at the Belsky website (lots of good ideas) and have the start of a plan in mind.
Since I'm starting with 36", I think I will retain 33" for blade. I have some 1/2" 416 rod and can mill 1/4" slots into the sides.
I'm thinking about having a channel on each side of the rod (not all the way through) and a matching channel in the tang, so it can slide together an be strong in all directions (still with pins and plenty of JB Weld all around).
I can reduce the top part of the rod to 3/8" (lathe) and thread it for the tang.
 
Unless this is just a decorative sword or wall hanger, 3" is not enough for the stub tang. The stress of a blow is too high that close to the cross guard.
The only way that would work would be to weld another 8" of steel onto the end of the 36" bar and put the joint in the handle. I would recommend that as the best way to get a 44" sword out of a 36" bar of 3V. If you aren't a good welder, have someone else do it.

The bigger issue is the HT. Have you thought that out yet?
 
I don't just want a wall hanger. I won't start anything until I have a good plan. I would rather have a shorter blade than have it eventually fail. I was planning on sending it to Peters for heat treat.
 
Just [TIG] weld it. Crucible has a nice article. It sounds like they recommend A2 as a filler metal. They list preheat temps and the like. I would just get a vaguely tang shaped piece of A2 and either weld it autogenously or use a bit of A2 drill rod as filler (prefered).

https://www.crucible.com/eselector/general/generalpart7.html

I would buy something like:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050R8FAU/ref=biss_dp_t_asn
and
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050RKV7U/ref=biss_dp_t_buying_options

Make sure to fillet both sides of the joint, preheat everything, run lots of gas, and make sure you are getting full penetration. Weld one side, flip it over and check for penetration, and then weld up the other side. If you do it right, you won't have any strength issues, but the pre and post heats are absolutely crucial.

Now , you are going to need a big oven to really nail those temps on something that size, but if you have a forge or oxy acetylene, you should be able to get in the listed range for pre/post heats and when you send it out for HT ask them to run a heating cycle at 1425 for X number of minutes prior to quench.

Their article has nothing about peening the welds, so I would avoid as long as you are in compliance with their pre and post HT procedures.
 
Thanks for all the info. I actually have a piece of 1/4" thick A2 already.
I won't rush this. I'll either weld it as you suggest, or make a shorter design, or cut it up and make 6-8 smaller knives...
 
I have seen welded tang swords break. If you are going to weld, don't make a joint that goes straight across the tang. Make a V-shape, or U shape in both pieces so they can "key" together and your welds are more in line with the sword blade than perpendicular to it.
 
I would say, just don't risk it. If you look at many katana sizes - the blades always seem to be 27-30 inches. That leaves you with at least a 6 inch 'full' tang, and then weld a pommel on that if you need one.
You went thru the added cost of getting 3v, make the most of it = ) please post pics when it's forged & done, thanks

(I know you didn't say you were making a katana, but they have developed that size after many hundreds of years of perfecting a sword)
 
Thanks for all the advice. I have decided not to weld, but just to scale back the length a little.
I'm actually making two swords since I bought two pieces of 3V. The second one is 3/16" thick and will be a katana. It is even further behind in the planning stages since I'm still researching handle construction for a katana. I'll certainly post some pictures once these projects get going. I have some travel coming up that will delay me a little.
 
When searching katan handles it is best to search under tsuka. There is a Japanese reference list in the stickys. A 36" long bar makes a good katana. 27" blade and 9" nakago. Final tsuka length from the tsuba will be about 11".

If doing a katana, you will want to lightly forge in the sori. This can be done cold, but visiting a friend with a forge is better.
 
Thanks Stacy. I haven't organized anything yet, but I had in the back of my mind that there are some old threads where you helped someone with this.
 
I have forged 3V befor and saying it is “unpleasant” is an understatement. Crazy picky with temps. I would not attempt if you did not have a pid controlled forge and a press. Even at the corect forging temp the steel just basically laughs at you, “bring it” it says. If at any time in the forging you feal like it’s forging easier then it’s to late and it’s allrrady crumbling.
 
I understand people's trepidation about welding, but understand that properly welded joints should not be weak points. YOu get weak points when you see crap welds. People trying to weld cast iron with mild steel, people using the wrong filler, skipping a preheat or stress relief. Welding is a science. And it is used in applications that are a whole hell of a lot more demanding than kinfemaking. If a welded turbine blade will stand up, there is no reason you can't weld a tang.

To make things better, Crucible takes all the trial and error out of the process. They detail the whole procedure. I am not saying that you NEED to weld the tang, but I am sure that if you follow the instructions, you CAN weld the tang with no negative performance ramifications.
 
JT,
Forging in the sori isn't like forging a bevel. All you do is heat the bar to around 1000-1200F and work about 1/2" or so of curve into the spine. From there it is all grinding/filing/stoning/sanding.

You can even do it with a torch, but pumping the bar through a standard forge works perfect. The whole process takes 5 minutes at the most. I hold the bar in tongs use a wooden mallet to whack the spine and curve the bar.
 
For the katana I have a 2" wide piece and believe I fit the entire pattern including sori, so I can stick with stock removal.
J joedhiggins I appreciate your input on the welding on my other project. I will travel for a couple weeks and then decide. I'm not set up to follow Crucible's recommendations, so I would have to look around locally or send it out.
To be clear, do you feel that Peters' procedure for 3V will work for a piece that is A2 for the last 8 inches or so?
 
So I don't know what procedure they use. If they use CPMs temperatures, the number may be a a bit high for A2, but then CPM seems to recomend using A2 (or other air hardening tool steel). So it is probably fine. I would talk to Peters and see if they foresee any problem. You could also just use another piece of 3V for the tang if you wanted. Hell, you could use 3V as filler as well. My guess is that the A2 would be fine, and if you have a bit lying around, you could test it pretty easily. Austenitize it at the lower end of the 3V range , temper and see how it responds to bending/impact.

Edit: A bit more reading shows a number of people austinitize A2 at 1800+ so if you had them stick to the lower end of the 3V range, you are probably fine.
 
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I would not expect any issue with an A-2 tang/nakago extension, as long as the first 4" are 3V. There is little lateral stress on the tang inside the tsuka if it is made right.
 
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