Swords with Rings in handle?

[Joezilla]

hey Guys,

are there any swords in the literature with rings on the handle for spinning?

 

[Joezilla]

Similar to this below. Disregard practicality, I was just wondering if there was a name, or a sword type, with this integrated into the handle

 

[liamstrain]

There are a few traditional Chinese and European sword patterns that have large rings on the pommel, but they wouldn't work for spinning (wrong weight distro). I cannot think of any sword traditions that encourage spinning, for that matter...

Curious to learn what else might be out there though.

 

[Chris Larrikin]

I know there were swords with finger guards allowing more blade control but I have not heard of any used for spinning.

 

[BePrepared]

hey Guys,

are there any swords in the literature with rings on the handle for spinning?

View attachment 348214

Well, using it for "spinning" would be entirely pointless as you can't use it to reverse your grip. It would basically be just for looking cool. Silly

But yes, google "Ring Pommel Sword" or "Ring Pommel Knife" there are plenty of fantasy blades out there with things you have no use for on them

 

[horseclover]

A number of third world Latin countries had finger ring hilt "saddle" swords. A thorough search for vaquero swords will find S shape crossguards with a ring and less stylized examples.

One such

Latin America and filipino but predominately northern Mexican saddle swords. The rings for retention not spinning and that thought probably brought about by idjuts playing with kerambits.

Cheers

GC

 

[Triton]

Mortuary hilt swords often also include a thumb ring. Again, not for spinning. I can't imagine what useful purpose spinning your sword by your index finger could possiby serve.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Spinning in sword play to me means that you lock the hilt onto the opponent's blade, and spin around it to score a hit. Some western swords were designed with a pin sticking out perpendicular from the crossguard which could be used to facilitate that.

 

[horseclover]

Spinning in sword play to me means that you lock the hilt onto the opponent's blade, and spin around it to score a hit. Some western swords were designed with a pin sticking out perpendicular from the crossguard which could be used to facilitate that.

Do you have a source or example of that?

Thumb rings for mortuaries and other renaissance swords were perpendicular to the plane of the blade, whereas the vaquero example shown above is in the same plane as a kerambit or swords and knives with that ring or the hilt.

There are a number of earlier late medieval swords with a ring above the cross and of course once you move to early rapiers, there are rings.

If you are regarding "spinning" as binding and winding, I would still be very interested in your source or an example of this "pin" you are writing about.

Cheers

GC

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Let's see, source for use is personal. I've done a fair amount of messing around with western swords, although the bulk of my swordplay has been with either modern fencing saber, or chinese martial arts (niuweidao, liuyedao, and jian).

As far as the source for the medieval swords built thusly, I saw several examples in a museum in London years ago. Basically, it looked like a thick nail had been hammered in perpendicular to the grip. The tour guide suggested that the intent had likely had something to do with construction, but that it had later been used to assist in what you call binding and winding, (which appears to be a more conventional term). The ringed versions you talk about also can be used similarly, but don't provide as good of an axis of rotation.

 

[horseclover]

Funny we never see such a pin or nail mentioned or pictured in the books (fechtbuch) for European swordsmanship. The books as old as the swords. Can you think of any text at all that mention them?

Cheers

GC

 

[Triton]

Let's see, source for use is personal. I've done a fair amount of messing around with western swords, although the bulk of my swordplay has been with either modern fencing saber, or chinese martial arts (niuweidao, liuyedao, and jian).

As far as the source for the medieval swords built thusly, I saw several examples in a museum in London years ago. Basically, it looked like a thick nail had been hammered in perpendicular to the grip. The tour guide suggested that the intent had likely had something to do with construction, but that it had later been used to assist in what you call binding and winding, (which appears to be a more conventional term). The ringed versions you talk about also can be used similarly, but don't provide as good of an axis of rotation.

Not to pile on here, but what sort of training do you and / or your opponents have? I've watched guys that have trained using fechtbuch and Italian manuals extensively and I've never seen anything remotely like you are suggesting. Now it may be that you've invented something never considered by the ancient masters... but occam's razor suggest perhaps not?

I would also like to see these perpendicular projections as I've not noted them before, although I have see it suggested that things like the siderings on the GBS talked about in another thread (which does have rings but not for spinning) are used for binds.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Nope, definitely in common use by ancient masters. Binding and winding is pretty traditional, as it turns out. That seems to be the usual term, which you can research if you're unfamiliar. Basically, you seek positive contact with the blade of your opponent's sword on your guard, use the guard to force their blade away from your body, and bring your blade around theirs as an axis of rotation to snap into their center. The ARMA crowd has a few more tricks than the SCA, if that's what you're talking about? I don't really know your experience either.

 

[horseclover]

Nope, definitely in common use by ancient masters. Binding and winding is pretty traditional, as it turns out. That seems to be the usual term, which you can research if you're unfamiliar. Basically, you seek positive contact with the blade of your opponent's sword on your guard, use the guard to force their blade away from your body, and bring your blade around theirs as an axis of rotation to snap into their center. The ARMA crowd has a few more tricks than the SCA, if that's what you're talking about? I don't really know your experience either.

See, the thing is that some readers are somewhat familiar with the WMA circles and texts of what you are calling "ancient masters". To me, that would mean more like the copper and bronze age and not the medieval period from 1100-1600. The ARMA may be one source familiar to some but there are scads of others working on period treatise. I am not a well studied swordsman of any kind but am familiar enough to really wonder of the depth of knowledge/experience you might be writing from yourself. Familiar enough to have raised the question as an issue in the first place.

You do realize that the SCA stands for a group building on creative anachronism? There are quite a few that study both the real history and SCA "tricks" but they will be the first to tell you that they are separate philosophies in how to bout.

Now, it could be and most likely is that I could be more of a bookworm in experience and knowledge but have been on the sword net since 1997 and indeed have read a great deal. Swordsmanship is not my primary interest but then again have a few bookmarks aside from just other boards.

Swordsmanship
http://combatmachine.tripod.com/kemp01_e.htm
http://www.xvld.org/1796-light-cavalry-sabre-sword-drill.html
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~hudson/personal/
http://tcasfencing.com/antique_fencing_catalog.htm
http://paulushectormair.blogspot.com/search/label/HEMA Politics
http://www.ahfi.org/
http://www.ahfi.org/articles/grandassault.php
http://pw1.netcom.com/~cecilymc/index.html#TableofContents
http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/bostontea.html
http://cla.calpoly.edu/~bmori/syll/Hum310japan/Bushido.html
http://www.kmoser.com/classicalfencing/
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_smith_1103.html
http://cbd.atspace.com/articles.html
http://www.navyandmarine.org/cutlassmanual/
http://ed2k-it.com/viewtopic.php?p=127633
http://chivalricfighting.wordpress....e-play-putting-practice-into-practice-part-i/
http://ia331312.us.archive.org/2/items/workeforcvtlerso00heywuoft/
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~hudson/personal/projects/rapier/saviolo/
http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/sword.htm
http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyframe.htm
http://www.kmoser.com/personal/
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26706/26706-h/26706-h.htm
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/User:Michael_Chidester
http://www.navyandmarine.org/index.htm
http://connect.in.com/saber-fencing/photos-french-saber-amberger-collection-7f62325d7023aeda.html
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/
http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/links.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...iolent-life-and-death-of-medieval-knight.html
http://www.salvatorfabris.com/Home.shtml
http://www.umass.edu/renaissance/lord/collection.html
http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/shape-of-sword-or-knife-blades.html
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor_0701.htm
http://www.yachigusaryu.com/essays/yari_history_and_use.html

I could then also list books I do own and documents I do have in folders but to what end? EDedicated forums like ARMA I could link as well. To what end?

I am familiar enough with binding and winding to say it is not always at the guard and that I have never seen or read of the said pin you mentioned some posts ago. Hence my looking for more definite reference you might be familiar with. I am pretty sure I won't find it on the ARMA site (before it was called ARMA; HACA), as a venue I am as familiar with as Blade Forums. You could them watch John Clements performing German longsword techniques and then note it is not only the forte of the blade at work.

Really, not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill but sometimes one simple thing can really stand out as inaccurate enough to challenge. The same to be said of spinning knives and swords via a ring at the guard.

Cheers

GC

ps

of those links, they were simply collected as sites that were unfamiliar enough to bookmark and remember. More off the top of my head are easily found on SFI or myArmoury, or Schola or HEMA, or... or...etc

 

[horseclover]

If you are regarding the nagel of a messer, yes quite literally termed a nail but common to a messer and those projections found on other hilts but there as a block more than anything else. Not really more (and truly less) than a tsuba on a katana. Looking at messer, they are not often just a pin but a flat nub sticking out.

I digress but would accept that as your explanation and source.

mea culpa
http://talhoffer.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/fighting-with-the-messer-plate-226-page-114v/

Cheers

GC

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Honestly, I'm not as well-read as you. Like you say, simple details stick in the mind, and I recall seeing those at the museum, although I wasn't told the specific name at the time. A basic search about the nagel does indeed look very much like the examples I remember.

http://talhoffer.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/an-introduction-to-the-long-knife-langes-messer/

You are correct that they aren't always a pin, and that binding isn't always done at the hilt. I don't believe I ever explicitly said that they had to be. I was merely pointing out that they COULD be used as such, and in the circumstance such as the one I was describing, I went into more detail. It would be a fallacy on your part to assume that listing one example therefore means that such is the entirety of the use. I believe I said SOME, not EVERY, for instance. As you say, simple details matter, and it's rather annoying to me to specifically go to the trouble of including those caveats, and then have folks like you misread them anyways, and accuse me of lying or something.

I was very careful to mention that "spinning to ME means this", and that the pin (or nagel, in the case of the Messer) wasn't designed for such use (as I know perfectly well it was used to protect the hand), but CAN be used. I'm not a historian. I just like swords, which you might have gathered from the fact that since I took up making blades, I tend to make primarily swords.

More, I don't believe I ever said that the simple nail was the only form of such. Certainly there are more elaborate ones, and I'd suspect that the ring guard derived from the simple nail. I am well aware you are quite a bit more well-read than I. However, I would encourage you, in your readings, to be more careful with what you read, since our disagreement here seems to have come from your misreading of my posts.

To sum up.

I suspect that yes, I am referring to the nagel, and other such. I don't care whether you accept that as my source or not. I am relying on an incomplete memory of swords in a museum seen years ago and what the tour guide had said about those parts, and things I've seen on other people's blades while engaging in swordplay myself. I've already got a notoriously bad memory, perhaps relating to my ADHD.

Our group distinguished binding and winding techniques involving that small projection from the rest of the binding and winding techniques, which, as you say, didn't necessarily involve the guard. However, there WAS a fairly substantial number of moves involving the nagel, or ring, etc, and, although I haven't read these treatises by ancient masters thoroughly (or in some cases at all), it would surprise me that they hadn't discovered those moves, because they're quite effective. So, I assume, based on Occam's razor mentioned by Triton, that they must have known them. Perhaps I am mistaken, and I would take your word for it. I really don't care. Those times are past, and gone, and the moves work. Whether the ancient masters discovered them or not, matters little to me.

Also, unrelated side note, Occam's razor is a stupid concept. While certainly, the simplest explanation based on ALL the facts is generally correct, we rarely know all the facts, and often manufacture things to fill in the holes in our knowledge, thus leading us astray. In practice, the simplest explanation that we can think of rarely turns out to be correct, because we face often insurmountable epistemological problems.

 

[horseclover]

Spinning in sword play to me means that you lock the hilt onto the opponent's blade, and spin around it to score a hit. Some western swords were designed with a pin sticking out perpendicular from the crossguard which could be used to facilitate that.

Honestly,

I don't think I misread that and asked for a simple example of such.

I am also that believes in another "maxim" that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but at the same time will doggedly pursue a "show me the money" attitude until satisfied. It was my own pursuit that found some evidence for you instead of your offering "Let's see, source for use is personal".

Which museum in London? There is a lot online and maybe you could share more information for our own edification instead of taking offense for fairly straightforward questions. I guess I could have put a lot of smilies in there but then taken as sarcastic instead of truly interested (which I still am, or I would have not replied in the first place).

Misreading posts goes both ways.

Cheers

GC

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Well, kinda hard to offer a specific source when it was something seen years ago in a museum which didn't allow pictures. Since you're curious, the Royal Armouries, in the Tower of London. And again, was just an aside to me. I didn't know the name of it, and thus couldn't, and can't still, offer you much more information than I have to date. I appreciate the research that you did, but should make it clear that it wasn't exactly important to me (and still isn't), since I'm considerably less interested in European and Japanese swords than I am in Chinese/Korean. I know it's more your area. All I can really say is that I remember seeing such, and have used the aforementioned techniques.

Many of yours and Triton's posts, including post #15, suggest that you had read my post as saying that the pin was FOR binding and winding. Which, you'll note, I never actually said. Rather, it was there as hand protection, but can be used for some moves. Take from that what you will.

 

[horseclover]

What I am still seeking is your comments about "Some western swords were designed with a pin sticking out perpendicular". Aside from the messers, I don't find it in the construction of other western swords which kind of makes it uniquely a messer trait. Guards of any type help in binding and winding (spinning, in your term). It seems to me a disadvantage to have one if the opponent is spinning around your axis

At any rate, a good distance now from ring subhilts.

Cheers

GC

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Negative. You use the opponents blade and the pin as a fulcrum for the maneuver.

It may well be a distinctly messer trait. Thing is, as I have said, I didn't know exactly what type of sword it was. Therefore, I provided as much information as I had, namely that it was a type of western sword. Those with more knowledge and interest, such as yourself, could then feel free to search it out, as you did. I do not know if there are other types or not. I would defer to your knowledge, and seeing as how you are convinced they don't exist, it may well be just a messer trait. Nothing I said was indicative of more than that a few representatives of western swords had the trait. For all I knew, it might have been only those swords ever with those. I am sorry I cannot be more help. The relevant part was that strange things on the guard can sometimes be of more use than traditionally considered. Not sure how a ring would work, but its arrogant to assume that you know every trick, because it takes but one new trick that you thought impossible to kill you