tapered/rat tail tangs and handles and handle materials

NapalmCheese

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Having never made a knife before and only once ever making a worthwhile sheath I decided to buy some premade Laurin blades, a leuku and a puuko. I plan on gluing up a couple of nice pieces of wood I have laying around the house to make a handle block, drilling/broaching an appropriate hole through the block, installing a brass washer on the back and peening the end of the tang (after cutting it to an appropriate length if necessary).

Questions:
  1. The corners on the tangs seem very sharp, should I take a little sand paper or a fine file to them to break the corners? Does it matter?
  2. Should I also epoxy the handle on?
  3. I was going to use the case head from a rifle cartridge as the washer on which I'll be peening the tang. Should I match the hole up to the size of the tang (i.e. a square hole just big enough for the tang to go through) or just open it up to a round hole large enough to fit over the tang? I'm worried that if I do the latter the wood might crack as I'm peening the tang before the rivet has a chance to expand enough to mushroom over the washer. I can always find some other material and just make a washer to fit.
  4. I have an old cow bone my dog is done chewing, I could use that to make the bolster instead of the piece of maple, seems like it would be strong right?
  5. I have a bunch of black walnut I was planning on using for most or all of the handle, a few pieces have both sap and heart wood and could make an interesting looking two-tone handle. Any problems with using a chunk of walnut that uses both sap and heart wood?
I was planning on not using any epoxy and letting the peening of the tang keep everything tight under the impression that if I screw it all up, I can take it apart, cut the tang a bit shorter, and just epoxy a new handle on as a hidden tang.

Thanks all!
 
Use epoxy. If you have to remove the handle just hit the wood and the riveted end with a torch to heat it up ( this breaks down the epoxy) and them whack it hard on the sides with a hammer to break it apart. Then just clean up the tang and start again.

Handles are personal taste, but I never likes the sap wood on walnut.
 
Use epoxy. If you have to remove the handle just hit the wood and the riveted end with a torch to heat it up ( this breaks down the epoxy) and them whack it hard on the sides with a hammer to break it apart. Then just clean up the tang and start again.

Handles are personal taste, but I never likes the sap wood on walnut.
Use epoxy and walnut is fine

Sounds like the jury has spoken, awesome.

re: the sap wood, I was just worried there might be a structural difference. I'm not much of a wood worker but I seem to recall that most walnut is only supposed to have a certain amount of sap wood or something.

Thanks!
 
Welp, so it starts. I decided to start off with a smaller blade and a completely different handle. This one is a piece of plum with a chunk of walnut on the front. I've never before started off from firewood and made anything even resembling a dimensioned block, so this has been interesting. It takes a heck of a lot longer than I thought when all you are using is a hand saw, a surform, a spoke shave, and a sanding block. I epoxied the walnut onto the plum, I've never used epoxy for this kind of thing, as I've always used wood glue (partial to Titebond 3) for wood-to-wood stuff. It'll hold or it wont, whatever.

Next step, drill it. Then I'll get the tang fitted, rough shape the block, and work on a brass butt cap.

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I suggest epoxy also. Overall its more solid and allows easier albeit less precise broaching.
Cow bone works fine for bolsters and other parts. Just be sure its good and dry. It can take some advance planning. I make up alot ahead of time, boil it good and get as much fat out as possible then let them dry several months or longer before using.

Be sure the tang end is annealed dead soft and you dont leave too much sticking out.
Its a bit of trial and error leaving the right amount. Too little, you dont get a large enough peend end. Too much, it can crack much like a mushroomed chisel.
 
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Be sure the tang end is annealed dead soft and you dont leave too much sticking out.
Its a bit of trial and error leaving the right amount. Too little, you dont get a large enough peend end. Too much, it can crack much like a mushroomed chisel.
The more I think about this the more I start thinking I should take the (seemingly) easy way and just do a mortised tang, or a 3 piece on both this and the big chopper. Carving out a channel for the tang would be relatively easy, but this whole drilling/broaching thing seems like it's going to be quite the task.

Then again, if I don't do it this time I guess I'll never have the experience right?
 
Nce project. On your next one, make the tang hole before glueing the pieces of wood together. That way you don't have to go so deep
 
Making sure the end of the tang is annealed is great advice, just heat it to a very dull red with a torch and let it cool once of twice and that should be good enough. I would also say that you should try to fit the end/butt cap to the shape of the tang, just use a square or rectangular needle file to finish shaping the pre-drilled hole. Also, when peening use many light hits with a fairly light weight ball peen to make sure that you're only upsetting/mushrooming the very end of the tang, which should also make it easier to tell when it's done before accidentally going too far and potentially cracking the handle. As long as it's proper clamped when epoxying the handle on, the epoxy will make sure the handle stays set up tight against the bolster/guard shoulders so there's no need to try to tighten the fit up or close any gaps with the peening of the tang, which could cause problems.

If you're going to do a mortised tang (i.e. not a solid block for the handle) I probably wouldn't do a through tang, just a normal hidden tang. The tang looks like relatively small so it should be pretty easy to get it fit into the handle, especially since you plan on doing a through tang and can access the tang hole from both ends.

Just line up your drill bit so that the edge outer diameter of is is inline with top and bottom (spine side and edge side) of the tang and drill down as far as you can, in other words you wood be drilling in the wood at a bit of an angle on each side to trace the outline of the tang You can do that from each side (blade side and butt cap side) of the handle to connect the holes in the center if that would seem easier for you. Use a drill bit the same diameter as the tang thickness and then just drill and hog out the rest of the wood in the middle of two holes you drill in line with both edges of the tang. It doesn't have to be and exact fit as the epoxy will fill up and slop, although it's better to not have have too much slop.

Another littler tip is to make sure to slightly round over the top and bottom of the tang hole where the tang's shoulders will butt up against it, which will help with getting rid of any potential gaps in that area between the handle and tang shoulders.



~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Just some older videos of some knives I've made in the past)
 
You are overthinking this. The tang hole doesn't have to be a perfect fit to the tang …. that is what the epoxy does.
 
The Lauri blade will be about 1/8" thick. Trying to go from one end to the other with a .125 drill bit is going to be frustrating, because a bit that skinny is going to flex.

I suggest using a 3/16" brad point bit, and attacking from both ends as suggested by a previous poster. Then use a 1/8" square rasp to keyhole your round hole enough to allow the tang to fit. Be patient.

You mentioned you aren't much of a woodworker. Bradpoint bits have a different tip on them than common twist bits made for metal. They will cut wood much more efficiently and track better. (easier to keep straight).

Use good quality epoxy like several people have already mentioned. If the gaps are big, you can thicken the epoxy with an inert powder (wood dust from a sander, for instance) Wood dust is fine; boat builders use it. If you want to go high tech, go to the West Systems website and read about the various additives they offer for thickening epoxy.

I don't see anything wrong with a hidden tang, myself. Make sure you get plenty of epoxy in there. The downside is that you are making a blind hole (you can't drill from both ends). But if you use a 3/16" bit, the hole will be darn near big enough at the blind end on account of the tang being tapered. You will need a long bit to make the hole. Common twist bits in longer lengths are easy to find, bradpoints not so much. So start with a bradpoint, go as deep as you can, and finish with whatever long bit you can get your hands on.

Disclaimer - I am NOT an expert knife maker. But I've done several Lauri / Helle / Mora blades like this with good results. I figure if I ever get really good at handles and sheaths, I might try my hand at blades. In the meantime, there are plenty of Scandinavian blades to work with while learning handles and sheaths. Maybe you are looking at it in a similar manner?
 
Fwiw. I just drill once thru, then finish up with one of those round carbide grit hacksaw blades.
It cuts plenty fast and as mentioned with epoxy, you dont have to be highly accurate.
Said that, I seldom use full block for those handles. Its been years actually.
Nowdays, always stacked layers.
 
Cow bone works fine for bolsters and other parts. Just be sure its good and dry.
Turns out I can't find the cow bone I was planning on use, and the deer bones I buried in the backyard to (going to try my hand at a traditional flint knapped piece held together with sinew) needs another year or so. So this one will be just wood.

Nce project. On your next one, make the tang hole before glueing the pieces of wood together. That way you don't have to go so deep
This has me thinking... I was thinking of doing stacked pices of walnut heart and sap wood on the next knife, drilling before gluing up a block sounds like a good idea.

Making sure the end of the tang is annealed is great advice, just heat it to a very dull red with a torch and let it cool once of twice and that should be good enough. I would also say that you should try to fit the end/butt cap to the shape of the tang, just use a square or rectangular needle file to finish shaping the pre-drilled hole. Also, when peening use many light hits with a fairly light weight ball peen to make sure that you're only upsetting/mushrooming the very end of the tang, which should also make it easier to tell when it's done before accidentally going too far and potentially cracking the handle.
...
If you're going to do a mortised tang (i.e. not a solid block for the handle) I probably wouldn't do a through tang, just a normal hidden tang. The tang looks like relatively small so it should be pretty easy to get it fit into the handle, especially since you plan on doing a through tang and can access the tang hole from both ends.
Yeah, you're the second person to say I need to make sure the end is dead soft. I would hit it with the torch but I think I've decided to do a mortised tang for this one and stacked layers of wood and a peened end on the next one. I'm familiar with peening stuff over from cold riveting stuff before (I don't remember when or for what, but I do remember the first time I was able to successfully dress a proper looking cold rivet).

You mentioned you aren't much of a woodworker. Bradpoint bits have a different tip on them than common twist bits made for metal. They will cut wood much more efficiently and track better. (easier to keep straight).
Awesome info, I didn't know what a bradpoint was. I'm not much of a wood worker, but I enjoy it, and I've done a fair bit. My joinery is terrible, my artistic skills sub par, but I've built a plywood boat, a few tables, and fixed the occasional shotgun stock. This is just another step in the journey of learning.

Fwiw. I just drill once thru, then finish up with one of those round carbide grit hacksaw blades.
It cuts plenty fast and as mentioned with epoxy, you dont have to be highly accurate.
Said that, I seldom use full block for those handles. Its been years actually.
Nowdays, always stacked layers.

Yeah, after reading all these this morning I've decided that on this knife I'll just do a mortised tang. I've inlet stuff before and that seems like an easy and convenient way to finish off this knife without having to worry about drill bits flexing, holes not quite lining up, and managing to hold my hand drill at an appropriate angle in 3 space and figuring out how to hog out material in the middle. I hadn't heard about round carbide hacksaw blades before, that's interesting and certainly seems like it'd make it easy to clean up the hole. I don't currently have any tools for broaching and no small files; I was going to make a broach following some instructions I saw (I think on here). For the leuku blade I think I'll make a stacked handle from 4 or 5 pieces of wood making it quite a bit easier to drill as pointed out earlier. From there I can just stack, epoxy, rivet, and shape; all while understanding that the pieces don't need to be precisely fitted on the tang. I have a third blade I can try my luck on with drilling all the way through a big block, it was destined for my brother in law, we'll just make it a short 'family project'.

This has certainly been a learning experience, thanks again, all the help and wisdom available here has been a real boon to my actually getting this done.
 
Welp, it's gluing up right now. I'm not sure mortising was any easier than if I'd have just taken the hand drill to it, but hey, Learn something new every day right?

Next week I'll try something different! This has been a lot of fun so far, and I finally got to make something out of these random chunks of firewood I've been keeping out of the oven.
 
Btw, forgot to mention.
Its not ’plug-n-play with those carbide grit hacksaw blades.
One end of the blade needs to be cut off so it will fit thru your drilled hole.
Your hacksaw frame needs to be modified so rather than the blade held by a pin thru the end of sawblade.
Modify one end so it clamps the sawblade just like a Jewelry saw.
Actually, if you had a large jewelry saw, thats all the better, you wont have to modify a hacksaw.
 
Btw, forgot to mention.
Its not ’plug-n-play with those carbide grit hacksaw blades.
One end of the blade needs to be cut off so it will fit thru your drilled hole.
Your hacksaw frame needs to be modified so rather than the blade held by a pin thru the end of sawblade.
Modify one end so it clamps the sawblade just like a Jewelry saw.
Actually, if you had a large jewelry saw, thats all the better, you wont have to modify a hacksaw.

Interestingly enough, my wife has taken on jewelry making as a hobby and does indeed have a jewelers saw. In fact, she's going to help me make the bolsters next time around. In general I can make things work, but she can pretty much always make it pretty.
 
Welp, here it is in most of it's finished and imperfect glory. I'll do something different next time, either stacked wood or just drill it with the idea that I don't need to be precise.

Lt9rdVBl.jpg
 
Welp, here's the other one I was hafting.

The left one is the one I finished first, mortised tang on that one, walnut and plum with rubbed linseed oil. The right one I just finished today (still needs some clean up work, that stuff annoys me so I do it in short bursts). I drilled through the block with an undersized bit and used a needle file to open up the hole in the bolster end for a tight(ish) fit and used a slightly oversized drill bit to connect thehole from the back. I cut the case head off a 300 Win Mag case, punched out the primer, drilled out the primer pocket, and used a needle file to fit it over the tang before peining it in place. As I was shaping the handle after gluing it on I revealed some cracks in the wood. I ended up filling those with epoxy but there was a large flake. I ended up using thin CA glue in an attempt to stabilize the wood and decided to run with that as the finish on the handle, finished off to 1500 grit.

I made mistakes and learned a lot. I've got one more handle to do so hopefully I can put some of these lessons to use. Not a bad way to use up some of my firewood.

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Thanks, it's certainly been a learning process!

Tree service companies can't sell black walnut from around the city (to knotty, to high a chance of having nails or stakes) so they just dump it in a publicly accessible area and let people pick up firewood. We heat our home with wood so I run by every few weeks and see what's there. If it hasn't already been picked over there's usually a good mix of walnut, oak, birch, Chinese elm and of course pine. I might have to try an elm handle next.

I wish there was more ash, I split everything by hand and some of that elm can be a real bear.
 
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