Teach me about carbon steel

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davek14

Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
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OK, I've really gotten to be a carbon steel maven. Most of the best users I've had have been carbon steel and I always look for old carbon steel knives at yard sales to fix up.

Lately though, I've been noticing the differences in carbon steel knives. Some reasonably decent CS knives are much softer. Examples would be a Douk-Douk, Opinel, and Okapi. They still take a great edge, but are softer and that edge will roll with harder use. I also think they dull more easily.

I just got a newer Kissing Crane Sodbuster and the steel is orders of magnitude softer than the old German sodbuster. Both are CS. I don't know if it is still not too bad like, say, an Opinel yet. I'll let you know.

Anyway, what is the difference or differences here. Is it 1095 vs. 1075? Is it all heat treat? Is it both as well as the phases of the moon?

I've always loved CS steel in my "budget" knives. I have almost always had good experiences with it when I buy yard sale and flea market folders and kitchen knives. I'm looking around right now for a (somewhat) more quality carbon steel knife to buy new for EDC. What do I look for?

Actually, just educate me on carbon steel. I'm realizing how little I know.
 
1095 has close to 0.95% carbon and 1075 has close to 0.75. 1095 is mostly used for shorter knives of about 6". If it is too long, brittleness will be a problem. Cold steel's SK5 is about 1080 and that is used in bigger blades up to 10" or so. Condor uses 1060 in machetes. So that basically the longer the blade, and the heavier the task the less carbon you want, to maintain strength.

I wish people would use carbon steel more, since I prefer it to all but the most expensive stainless steels, and most carbon steels are pretty cheap. You do have to pay attention to them, or else they will rust.
 
It all depends on the application for the knife. If you're going to take it to someplace like RVN, rust is going to be a problem. Carbon steel knives will rust if you look at them too hard. Even some stainless knives would rust in time, over there, and the leather sheaths would turn to green slime. For normal stateside use, carbon steel is fully adequate, with care in cleaning.

EarlFH
 
I love carbon steel because of how easy it is to get it sharp and because of its toughness. Most of the knives I carry have hand forged blades made with 5000-series carbon spring steel. The heat treat and what you do after the treat really make a world of difference when working with spring steel.
 
Stainless steel as we know it today was invented/discovered in 1912, and we have a millennium of iron age before that, where iron rivets held boats together and men fought with iron weapons on beaches and where conquistadors fought through swampy jungle with carbon steel blades. You just need to maintain it more diligently. Carbon steel exists outside of the 1055-1095 range, there are other alloys with varying ranges of carbon as well, all with different properties.
 
davek14 said:
Anyway, what is the difference or differences here. Is it 1095 vs. 1075? Is it all heat treat? Is it both as well as the phases of the moon?

I've always loved CS steel in my "budget" knives. I have almost always had good experiences with it when I buy yard sale and flea market folders and kitchen knives. I'm looking around right now for a (somewhat) more quality carbon steel knife to buy new for EDC. What do I look for?

Actually, just educate me on carbon steel. I'm realizing how little I know.
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As for your European knives being softer, you are likely looking at a combination of alloy and heat treat. I have heard that the European companies use 1075. All of my traditionals are US-made, so I can only tell you what I have heard. But I do love traditionals and the list below is written up based on my personal experiences with them.

If you want some really good carbon steel folders, try:
  • Great Eastern - top of the line folders with amazing fit and finish, 1095 with a great heat treat and excellent edge geometry.
  • US-made Schrade Uncle Henry knives - excellent 1095. Schrade is out of business, but you can still find them on eBay.
  • Queen makes some under the Queen City brand. Good 1095. Hard to find.
  • If you come across a Cold Steel traditional, those were made by Camillus in Carbon V, which is essentially 1095 with some other elements thrown in. Very good blades.
  • Case CV is an alloy steel based on 1085. It is the least expensive option. I understand it has better edge holding than the European budget knives, but not as good as the other brands I have listed.
 
knarfeng said:
If you want some really good carbon steel folders, try:
  • Great Eastern - top of the line folders with amazing fit and finish, 1095 with a great heat treat and excellent edge geometry.
  • US-made Schrade Uncle Henry knives - excellent 1095. Schrade is out of business, but you can still find them on eBay.
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On the Schrades, I think you meant the old, U.S.-made Old Timers. There were some carbon Uncle Henry models, but the vast majority were stainless. BTW, I agree about Case's CV steel ........ great stuff.
 
res1cue said:
I wish people would use carbon steel more, since I prefer it to all but the most expensive stainless steels,
You betcha

As for your European knives being softer, you are likely looking at a combination of alloy and heat treat. I have heard that the European companies use 1075. All of my traditionals are US-made, so I can only tell you what I have heard. But I do love traditionals and the list below is written up based on my personal experiences with them.

If you want some really good carbon steel folders, try:
Great Eastern - top of the line folders with amazing fit and finish, 1095 with a great heat treat and excellent edge geometry.
US-made Schrade Uncle Henry knives - excellent 1095. Schrade is out of business, but you can still find them on eBay.
Queen makes some under the Queen City brand. Good 1095. Hard to find.
If you come across a Cold Steel traditional, those were made by Camillus in Carbon V, which is essentially 1095 with some other elements thrown in. Very good blades.
Case CV is an alloy steel based on 1085. It is the least expensive option. I understand it has better edge holding than the European budget knives, but not as good as the other brands I have listed.
Good answer, any others want to chime in with experiences with carbon jump on in.

What do you think of the Utica Kutmaster carbon and/or the Boker or Eye Brand carbon. German knives used to be pretty good. Mercator's aren't bad steel, although they have other problems.
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The only carbon blades with which I've had experience are a Mora and two Schrade Old Timers. I can second the suggestion for the US-made Schrade Old Timers. I start to daydream whenever someone even mentions their 1095.

I've been interested in this topic, too. Thanks for asking it, dave.

res1cue said:
1095 has close to 0.95% carbon and 1075 has close to 0.75. 1095 is mostly used for shorter knives of about 6". If it is too long, brittleness will be a problem. Cold steel's SK5 is about 1080 and that is used in bigger blades up to 10" or so. Condor uses 1060 in machetes. So that basically the longer the blade, and the heavier the task the less carbon you want, to maintain strength.
Click to expand...

I'm still learning, but I've heard people like the 1095 in the Becker BK2. Is this just an exception to the rule? Or is the BK2 actually brittle?
 
Difference in hardness is heat treat, not alloy. Those blades are around 10-15 points below attainable hardness. The steel used is still close to the eutectoid, it doesn't need more carbon for hardening purposes.
 
mnblade said:
On the Schrades, I think you meant the old, U.S.-made Old Timers. There were some carbon Uncle Henry models, but the vast majority were stainless. BTW, I agree about Case's CV steel ........ great stuff.
Click to expand...

You're right. I should know better than to post before my second cup of coffee.
 
GLDNDomer said:
The only carbon blades with which I've had experience are a Mora and two Schrade Old Timers. I can second the suggestion for the US-made Schrade Old Timers. I start to daydream whenever someone even mentions their 1095.

I've been interested in this topic, too. Thanks for asking it, dave.



I'm still learning, but I've heard people like the 1095 in the Becker BK2. Is this just an exception to the rule? Or is the BK2 actually brittle?
Click to expand...

No, the BK2 is not brittle. It is as tough as they come.
KaBar uses 1095 Cro Van, which is actually an alloy steel, rather than a pure carbon steel.

Brittleness depends on heat treat as well as carbon content.
I'm told that 1095 can be taken to a ~64 hardness. At that hardness it is rather brittle. But KaBar heat treats theirs to 57HRC. At that hardness, it has an excellent blend of edge retention and toughness.
 
It depends on how you define carbon steel. Do you only count the 10xx series of steels? Or do you throw in 52100, L6, M2, M4, A2, or any other steel that will rust easily? The latter are definately not just carbon steel. 1045 and up will make a servicable knife. If the edges are rolling too easily, that's heat treatment, unless you're actually dealing with 1045.
 
By strict metallurgical definition, in the US, only the 10xx steels are "carbon steels" (granted there are other naming conventions in other countries).
For pure "Carbon Steel", only Iron, Carbon, Manganese, Phosphorus, and Silicon can be included in controlled amounts.

The others you mention are "low alloy steels".
I mentioned low alloy steels in my responses also. Among them CV, 1095 Cro Van, and Carbon V. Since the OP was asking about steels used in pocket knives such as the Okapi and Opinel, it was reasonable to stretch the definition to include CV and Carbon V. But no one uses A2 in a folder.)
 
question: why not A2 in folders?

If I remember correctly, knifemaker R.Flaherty in BF made folders in A2
 
me2 said:
And it's a cryin' shame.
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Pohan Leu uses A2 in his folders. They are not cheap. Most of his knives are a2. He mostly makes Japanese styled fixed blades. You can see his influence from the late Phill Hartsfield.
 
Canal Street has used A2, but I don't know how often. I had a sleeveboard ring opener with A2.
 
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