Techno-Wootz Damascus Steel: The Only True Damascus?

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These guys are in Texas, and claim to have made a "breakthrough" on the recreation of ancient Damascus Wootz steel, which they call "Techno-Wootz Damascus steel." They have applied for patents and claim that their steel is far superior to the pattern-welded "Damascus" on the market today.

Prices are expensive. I've heard similar claims before. Comments?


TechnoWootz Steel
 
Here we goes again. :D

These guys freaked out on some bladesmiths here because they dared to use wootz or damascus or some process that looked like what they claimed to us. But I don't know if the patent can hold up, as pierced says, Al Pendray beat them to it but so did the metallurgists of ancient India.

I can't find the old threads, can't think which knifemakers were involved. You might ask about it in Shop Talk. In fact, I ought to move this there! They would know more about it.
 
I think Tim Lively was one of the people involved that was threatened with a lawsuit over there supposed "patent" over wootz
 
Yes! Thanks :thumbup:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/512459-Im-being-sued-for-making-Wootz

TimLively
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Im being sued for making Wootz

"Since Tim Lively's wootz is covered within my patents, I offered to license him to continue for 5 years for a bottle of tequila. His response is that I have to sue him to prevent him breaking my patents. So be it."

Well it looks like the guy is coming after me for making wootz out of classic steel. Nobody but him is calling it wootz. Before all the threats were through private messages but now he actually states it on his public forum so I think he's really going to sue me. This ought be fun. I guess since he's gone public there no need to hide who he is anymore. Here's a link to the action.


http://www.swordarts.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2244
Click to expand...
 
I don't know really the whole story here, I'm sure it's complicated, but as noted above "Wootz" steel is an ancient technology, to patent it I would think is laughable. It does seem as though Angel Sword has trademarked the term "Techno-Wootz" which seems altogether different.

Broad terms such as "wootz damascus or 'true Damascus' is metallurgically superior to mechanical Damascus" bother me. That is totally subjective. I mean, "metallurgically superior?" what does that even mean?

I'll add, though maybe I shouldn't, that the company in question has caught my notice for other hype-related issues in the past...

In a nutshell, my understanding of this steel:
Wootz is a cast steel, then the ingot is forged to shape or into bar stock and then ground. The casting process, combined with the alloying ingredients, impart a structure that is a softer iron matrix with large carbides distributed within it. It's similar to the older concept of hi/lo carbon pattern welded steel; the soft matrix wears away faster than the hard parts, creating a micro-serrated edge. Supposedly this is superior for cutting soft items such as meat, i.e. bodies.
I'm all for the romance and even utility of re-creating ancient cutting technologies, but somehow I don't think you'd want a straight razor made of Wootz. My understanding is that the carbides are large and aggressive.

Modern pattern welded steels are usually made of all fully hardenable steels, so carbon migration is not such an issue. The question of "micro-serration" disappears, and the metallurgy becomes similar to that of monosteels- heat treating correctly to achieve full hardening with fine grain, and tempering correctly. That's a good way to create a smooth-cutting and flexible blade with a durable edge; large carbides can often tear out, I don't know if this is the case with wootz.

Just my $0.02, take it with a grain of salt.
 
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Well said, Salem.

The issue here is that these guys wanted to patent a process that is very old. The make the same steel in Russia, and it is made in other places,too. Other knifemakers have "re-discovered' what was already there several times.The "secret" isn't much of a secret.
If I make a blade in my forge using normal processes that I can look up online or in a book, and it develops a wootz like pattern, they would have a hard time pressing their claim.

What these chaps are doing is as silly as them saying, " Hey, no one has patented boiling water ! Let's apply for a patent and tell everyone that they can't boil water any more, without paying us. Our special process will be a secret, but entails heating the water to 212F. If you heat water and see small bubbles form in it, you will get sued."

I don't know if they ever even got a patent on their process. IIRC, it was pretty well determined that they couldn't patent the "look', only their process in attaining it.
 
Stacy be careful with this one if you don't know the M.O., his minions are fanatical and if one of them gets a whiff of this thread they will be on it like piranha hoping to stir the largest hornets nest possible in order to use this forum for free advertising. And, yes, anybody who dares counter a single outrageous claim risks at least the threat of a lawsuit. Many forums have learned the hard way to avoid the topic altogether. Knowing much more that I ever cared to about it, my opinion is to lock it now, or at least monitor it very carefully with your finger poised on the button.
 
Advise well noted...thank you.

FWIW, I did a patent search and come up with no patent for techno-wootz, or any wootz related patents that would apply to knives.
 
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Since we already had the discussion way back when, we don't need to reinvent that wheel either, this thread has already pointed the original poster to the information he wanted. Might as well avoid the trolls and close it now.
 
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